Offroad-Express

Does anyone have a copy I can get a hold of? I want to compare to 4x4 Challenges rules to see how different and what can be done to get a single set of rules for the whole country.
email to me direct darin.neeley@roostmortgages.co.nz.

the few I have been to have much the same points scoring system.
but the trucks only need a wof, reg, insurance and tyre size
also two classes 33" clubmans and 36" big boys ect.
same only allower synthetic rope

works well and iam sure a few of the South Island boys
will start to go to the north island when ready.

I ran the Whangarei comp with a beginner class but I want to refine it a bit so I thought looking at what th SI guys are doing would be a good start.

toysuzi wrote:the few I have been to have much the same points scoring system.
but the trucks only need a wof, reg, insurance and tyre size
also two classes 33" cludmans and 36" big boys ect.
same only allower synthetic rope

works well and iam sure a few of the South Island boys
will start to go to the north island when ready.

No need for a roll bar of any sort?

Bruce Hughes at 4WD Upgrades in ChCh seems to be the main point of contact for this. The rules are still a work in progress, but I believe there's a meeting planned in Feb for the key players to nail down a standardised set of rules. I can send you the ones we used in Marlborough if you want them. We allowed steel winch cables, and no need for roll cages. It does lead to some extra care needed in setting stages, with compulsory winch sections, and we tried to avoid extreme sideways angles, with lots of corners and narrow sections to keep speeds down. From my perspective, the aim is to keep the rules simple enough so that any decent club truck can enter, and set the course to keep it safe rather than requiring the trucks to have all the fancy stuff. The big-money boys can play in the National trials.

muddy wrote:Bruce Hughes at 4WD Upgrades in ChCh

I dont think thats right Is he not from southland

Jafa wrote:

toysuzi wrote:the few I have been to have much the same points scoring system.
but the trucks only need a wof, reg, insurance and tyre size
also two classes 33" cludmans and 36" big boys ect.
same only allower synthetic rope

works well and iam sure a few of the South Island boys
will start to go to the north island when ready.

No need for a roll bar of any sort?

Nope - why should we when the stages are suitable designed.

What Muddy said!

And yep PR, Bruce is from Winton.

PR wrote:

muddy wrote:Bruce Hughes at 4WD Upgrades in ChCh

I dont think thats right Is he not from southland

yep got a garage in Winton

Jafa wrote:

toysuzi wrote:the few I have been to have much the same points scoring system.
but the trucks only need a wof, reg, insurance and tyre size
also two classes 33" cludmans and 36" big boys ect.
same only allower synthetic rope

works well and iam sure a few of the South Island boys
will start to go to the north island when ready.

No need for a roll bar of any sort?

I ran the last Whangarei comp and had a class that didn't need rollcages. It is fine if the tracks designed accordingly, but if everything was like that it would be a bit boring.
The high speed stuff really gets things going!!!!!

PR wrote:

muddy wrote:Bruce Hughes at 4WD Upgrades in ChCh

I dont think thats right Is he not from southland

Ooops! I stand corrected. I think the meeting is planned for Feb in Timaru.

I better emphasise that I'm not too actively involved in the planning of the SI circuit - just on the local club committee & as such a bit more focussed on what we as a club want to achieve. There is understandably a fair bit of debate about how serious we want things to get, but it seems to me that it's heading towards a 2-level event, with the "Big Boys" attracting some pretty serious machinery which will need a higher level of scrutineering. I'm personally more interested in the "Clubman" class & and I believe that if it isn't clearly kept a level suitable for Joe Average, then the whole concept will die. You've got to keep an entry-level competition, or there will be no-one willing to do the hard yards on the organising/marshalling side. I'd like to see the Clubman class limited to 33in RADIALS, with winch points provided to remove the need for ground anchors, steel cable allowed, no roll cages, maybe only one locker (or both open diffs), stages set with these limitations in mind. Maybe some stages should only have a DNF time, and points are only deducted for safety or reversing, so there is no speed element in the scoring. Entries would then have to be restricted for each class, and there are obvious planning implications in having two essentially different circuits. In my view - if this can't be achieved, I'd prefer to drop the "Big Boys" class altogether - I'd prefer to support the entry-level trucks in a fun event! But that's just me, & I accept there are other people with different ideas...

NJV6 wrote:

Jafa wrote:

toysuzi wrote:the few I have been to have much the same points scoring system.
but the trucks only need a wof, reg, insurance and tyre size
also two classes 33" cludmans and 36" big boys ect.
same only allower synthetic rope

works well and iam sure a few of the South Island boys
will start to go to the north island when ready.

No need for a roll bar of any sort?

Nope - why should we when the stages are suitable designed.

Do all the trucks (clubmans and bigboys) race the same stages at the SI comps?

So far, the 3 we have been in - yes. I was not at Timaru where the multiple roll was so cannot comment.

Remember there have only been 5 comps in total in the SI so things are still being fine tuned. ie. Course design to reflect no rollovers.

Thats why I'm asking. Of all the SI events I've read about (because I wasn't there, so keen to hear it from the horses mouth), there has been roll-overs in each of them, some damaged to the point where the vehicle had to pull out. Yet I hear comments that rollcages are not necessary......so I'm keen to be enlightened.

Darin,

I will e-mail you a copy of the South Island current rules as they stand. They do need some work and we are having a meeting in Feb to thrash out the issues and rewrite them.


We are trying to keep the clubmans class as simple as poss as it is a great way to get people with club trucks into the sport.


We believe if you set the tracks out correctly as done at the Takatimu Challenge it can be safe and exciting.

There were no rollovers in either of the southern ones, the Takitimu or Royalburn (Queenstown).

More will be known after the February meeting - there are no more comps until after that.

Cheers

I know in the Timaru event some stages had different start box for the clubmans class,I beleave the the roll was due to R/F high side wheel being driven over a tree stump causing the vehicle to roll.other competitors drove round it with no problems.

Shane wrote:I know in the Timaru event some stages had different start box for the clubmans class,I beleave the the roll was due to R/F high side wheel being driven over a tree stump causing the vehicle to roll.other competitors drove round it with no problems.

i was in that truck that rolled, we were 1st to do that course,and it was to tight they moved that peg over so you good get a better turning angle but 4 other trucks still hit after us and the last truck knock the post clean over, it was a boundary fence line if you look under timaru winch trial post i put some photos up but i marked it wrong on photo it was the next post along from where i marked it,and some courses had different start lines for open and clubmans,
bloody good fun thou good day out !


vince

Why do people seem to think that it's necessary to reinvent things like rules?

There seems to be that belief that there is a difference between what happens in the North and South Islands.

The rules that 4x4 Challenges NZ have developed are essentially built around safety as a work in progress since the first NZ winch challenge in 2000. Those of us who've worked through them for the past 7 years have only added things that are asked for by competitors or through observation and then evaluation.

We started without any roll over protection except for a wire mesh barrier behind the front seats, but the first roll over soon had competitors telling us that roll bars were vital. Seatbelt standards were lifted after an Australian competitor was killed.

The 4x4 Challenge rules allow event organisers to vary many details of how an event is structured and if they want to create "classes" then it's within their ability to do that.

The whole principle of the rules is that the organiser must be seen to be striving for a "best practice" scenario. Otherwise, if anything goes wrong and the coroner or the court question the standard applied to the event, the onus for not doing so, will fall on the event organiser. Risk management is all important now and that's requiring the best practice known. At this time it might be expected that the 4x4 Challenge rules developed over seven years, would be viewed as being best practice.

To craft a lower standard of safety parameters is only fine if it can be demonstrated that the risks are accordingly reduced. I was at the recent Whangarei event and the winner of the speed section was one of the "club trucks". These vehicles are still capable of getting themselves into situations the same as a full competition rig, if the organiser allows it. Usually it's the competitors who remark afterwards.... gee that was risky, it would have been nice to have had a ....?

Before another set of rules are created, what about contacting 4x4 Challenges and talking about it? After all, any new set will only mimic the existing ones.

Challanger Rules Here
http://www.4wdbits.co.nz/productslist.aspx?CategoryID=1&selection=3

Be aware that the rules are under annual review based on suggestions from competitors. A 4x4 Challenge NZ rules committee meeting was held on 4 Dec and the revision for the 2008 year will be out shortly. A change that will be signalled for 2009 is for a master electrical cutoff within reach of the driver/co-driver.

No where has it been said that our rules are not best practice. You even summed it up yourself with

These vehicles are still capable of getting themselves into situations the same as a full competition rig, if the organiser allows it.

Having organised many events down here, liability and safety risks are well in our minds.

The recent trial/mudplug/rally/whatever you want to call it I ran had 43 competitors and two rollovers. Gentle flops - driver error (aye Callum ). As much as I'd like to have organised something like what is shown on extreme TV with rollovers galore, I couldn't, simply because of who/type of vehicle was going to turn up.

Peter, I can see where your coming from. But for people to have a go in club trucks there is huge potential. Let the big Boys go play with all the rules. Let the club guys have a go. Put lots of corners in it, avoid sidlings etc.

There is more than vehicle rules under scrutiny as well.

Edited to add: basically the biggest problem is the government and OSH!

Over the past few years there's been several different classes tried but nothing has really worked. After getting more info on what has been happening in the SI comps I think their Clubmans class is a lot closer to being the right balance than anything tried in the NI.

I'm trying to figure out an improvement upon what I ran this year so that more people can get involved. The idea of no rollcages, wire rope and 33" radial MT's only, sounds like a pretty good start. Obviously the stage will need to be adjusted accordingly for safety and time.

I'd like to see an entry class that is consistent throughout the country but at present the only viable option is in the SI so the NI should copy that. Why reinvent the wheel?

The current 4x4 Challenges rules are a must for an open class competition. Anyone who does full winch comp without a rollcage is asking for trouble. The rest of the rules have been proven to work and have had a lot input from competitors. These rules have been created through necessity and do work. Modifying them for specific local conditions is a part of the rules as this has to be allowed for.

As winch comps are relatively new to the SI the average truck hasn't been modified as much, yet! But as we all know, once the bug hits it is all downhill!!!!! And it doesn't take alot of money to be able to go really fast, it just takes money to be able to do it and drive home!

I should have added that I think the attitude towards the sport from the SI guys seems to be really good. We need to make it easier for people to get involved.

darinz wrote:.....................it doesn't take alot of money to be able to go really fast, it just takes money to be able to do it SAFELY and drive home!

Not getting involved here, just reading with great interest, but i do have a question:

Why is it so important that club level vehicles be registered, warranted and insured???

Surely if they are scruitinised, and meet specific standards, that should suffice??

As you were

A big original part of winch challenges was the variety of terrain used and that the vehicles drove to those different places. Thus the road going legality. That variety is likely to come back into events.

Another part of that is putting the responsibility for that legality on the WOF issuer. If the vehicle has a WOF within a month of the event then there's a good chance it's fairly safe. Where does a oganiser stand if one of his people says that vehicle is safe and it fails causing injury... let's keep that responsibility with the WOF people, they are insured!

The role of the organiser then is just to see that the other components match the rules. To simplify that the aim is to have log books with the vehicles so they can be checked quickly...if the rollcage is the same as recorded, why inspect it every time? etc.

If you're not covered by third party insurance as a competitor, who's going to pick up the tab if you cause a problem .... maybe roll down a hill and take out a building or other vehicles?

I didn't think you would be coverd buy an insurance company while competing ??

for the safety i can see why you use different tracks
but when me an sav went to chch winch challange
it was much the same tracks for both classes.
we entered clubmans which we won but the best bit was we wore
only 10 pionts behind Bruce Hughes and 2nd over all
on points.

The clubmans class could potentially quite easily get a better score than big boys. Sorry you can't compare scores from one class to the other.

the scoring in chch was done as an over all. eg all one class
and the tracks all the same so how could it be easy to get a better score
unlike Marlborough that had diffrent tracks and scoring.

The scoring was done the same as the North Island rules as they have it sussed in that regard.

Each class was scored seperate from each other.