Offroad-Express

To those Idiots who would seek to harm ORE,

ORE is my online home... it has been since it was approximately 2 days old. I have spent many countless hours posting here, 4WDing with its members, fixing trucks and helping those who wish to fix their own, offering support and accepting help and support from other members when needed.

So get this right in your heads right now. ORE is a privelidge, not a god given right. Its continual development is underwritten and undertaken not only by Mikes innumerable hours of toil, but also by those who support it - not only financially but with good technical posts, with leading questions that help newbies and oldies alike, and not least by the moderators who weed out the crap on a daily basis.

However, a few days ago the crap got too much and Mike pulled the plug in disgust. Despite my own efforts, and those others who help on the site, it seems some of you can't help yourself, and against my own wants and needs I supported his decision to shut down the site, at least temporarily.

After a short period (less than 2 days) the amount of supporting emails recieved gave Mike a boost - enough to spend even more hours getting the forums back up for us all. To me that shows that there are a large number of members out there that have also had enough of your childish and destructive stupidity. I doubt, however, that there will be any second chances in this - if those of you bent on shaping ORE into a dumb-ass forum for posting whatever shit you feel like continue down your path then it is likely ORE will be lost to us all, for good. IF that happens don't be surprised if there are a few ungrateful ORE members who will be in touch with you.

So, consider this a warning - shape up or ship out. Stop wrecking the best online resource in this country for the 4WDing community. If you have nothing decent to say, just don't say anything.

Steve Dunford
4WD Stuff

Footnote: I want some open discussion on the off topic sections, on post whoring and on threadjacking with a view to some hard and fast rules about consequences - I know we've been there before, but it just doesn't go anywhere. This time it will.

mate, well said...

this is one of the best forums ive been a member off, so much so that i decided to become a member and support it. the amount of help and info i have found on here is just unreal, so thanks to mike and all the others that make it what it is.

I am one of the many that emailed my support, because it would be a bloody waste if this was shut down due to the actions of a few.


oh, and if this is in the wrong place feel free to point it out.

Well stated Steve; access to ORE is a privilege, and with privilege comes responsibility.

Kevin Dougherty

u guys must be doing a pretty good job removing rubbish posts, cause i log on nearly every day and check latest posts and haven,t seen anything?

i,ve run a forum and website in the past with a few thousand members and been a member of varoius petrol head sites that got pulled due to similair stuff.
Pretty advanced software out there designed too infiltrate forums and fill them with junk

do u mean the overseas hackers, posting porn site stuff or something else?

It would be great to see the site up and running without all the strife..
There is lots of tech and advice available on ORE.
It provides a great learning place for a lot of new 4wders.
I had been 4wding for 8-10 years before finding ORE but I have learnt a lot from the people on this site and I enjoy being able to pass on what I have learnt to others, whether they be members here or people I meet out on the track.

Respect the site everyone is a very valuable resource for us all.
The tech, the how to (and how not to...), the where to, and where not to, etc.
It doesn't need to be buried under a layer of petty arguing and bickering and negative input.
There is a lot of valuable information here for everyone,
DON"T LOSE IT

Great post Steve. I would hate to see ORE go down the toilet, after all the hard work thats been put into it. We all have a responsibility to keep this site free of the crap which has been gathering for a while now.

Mike Power

I agree with some of that....however ORE has grown from just a 4wd tech forum, a lot of people on here are for the community side of thing as well as the 4wd tech.

The issue here is keeping the 2 different types of content in the appropiate place, yes the offtopic is useful and moderators will need to ensure that all the tech stuff is free of the chat stuff, a little bit of banter is good in the appropiate forum but not the tech sections etc.

All Moderators need to be fair and objective and allow healthy discussion on both sides of the fence, moderators need to work off the same guidelines as well as your views might not be the same as another moderators. remember with the new ORE build there will be a few more moderators ie not just you.

So is this open letter the view of all of the moderators or your personal opinion....you perhaps need to clarify this...

from one steve to another well said. I was gutted when mike pulled the plug on sunday (however the other half thought it was great) but i can see the reason behind it. i think the off topic should stay as a place where people can go to shoot the breeze as the saying goes. of course there should be some guidelines associated with using the off topic area obvious ones like no abusing those that have been appointed moderators and of course no abusing mike....tho bubba and jerry are open season.....

u closed the site, because people were posting stuff off topic??

Mike is working on the moderator and guidelines issue at the moment, I expect we will have something from him on this soon.....

u closed the site, because people were posting stuff off topic??

Steve didn't close the site, he's just 1 of the moderators don't pick on him for doing a thankless job, Mike did because of some certain behaviour. any guidelines and stuff will come from Mikeas its his site.

SupraLux wrote:Footnote: I want some open discussion on the off topic sections, on post whoring and on threadjacking with a view to some hard and fast rules about consequences - I know we've been there before, but it just doesn't go anywhere. This time it will.

like all discussions - it is mostly up to the person starting it and the context or heading it was started in - so you want some rules - well set some - eg - this heading is strictly technical - ie ask your question - sit back and wait for a technical consensus - without any smart arse interference etc

ok, I'm not trying to stir, but here is MY opinion.

The abuse came from a member to took offense to being told to keep what he was posting elsewhere as it was not wanted aa it was not 4wd related.

While I do not agree with the way he went about it, I too never realised that the weekends achievements were ONLY for 4wd related activities.
There have been numerous replies in this topic in the past that are not 4wd related, so perhaps it should be made clear to everyone from now on thats its 4wd related or nothing?

Thank you for that Steve, I was pleased to see the site stopped and welcome it back. It has been my 2nd home for over 3 years as well.

Hopefully it made a point.... You know my thoughts. Lets get it back to how it was & why I/we joined.

Jerry, FFS, 3 posts on this topic already, of which 2 should have been answered by the appropriate person. If you want to post mindless rubbish take the second option of Steve's.

My thoughts -
Keep ANY banter out of tech. Save it for Off Topic or new members. Simple. Once there is one comment it gets replied to and so on and so forth then an extreemly useful thread gets gunked up with 5 pages of drivel to sift through.

There are too many options. When fishing, hunting, biking, etc etc are mentioned it takes away from the core 4WD. Has it been considered to do it similar to OL where any Toyota problem or discussion goes under Toyota?

And learn to spell people! The odd mistake - we all make but grammer, texting language etc....

Maybe I've got the back to work blues.....

Glen

NJV6 wrote:My thoughts -

There are too many options. When fishing, hunting, biking, etc etc are mentioned it takes away from the core 4WD. Has it been considered to do it similar to OL where any Toyota problem or discussion goes under Toyota?

And learn to spell people! The odd mistake - we all make but grammer, texting language etc....

Maybe I've got the back to work blues.....

Glen

i thought the reason for the fishing, hunting etc etc threads was to get stuff out of the tech threads trouble is they never seem to get well used perhaps there should just be a front page with all the forum headings then from there it goes to the topic page for each heading and then from there to the threads. it may solve part of the problem it may not just my thoughts on that .
as for the spelling comment i tend to agree even tho i'm bad for grammatical errors (i do try but those pesky punctuations keep getting away) but txt chat can be downright annoying specially as i'm crap at it.
well those are my thoughts on those points.

cheers
steve

I think some would be wise to remember that not everyone just pops out to the garage Saturday morning and drives out the next day with a shiny new custom 4-link rear suspension, SAS, dual transfer setup, V8 engine repower, bobbed flatdeck, crossover steering setup or suchlike accompanied by 100 photos and detailed walkthrough of said modifcation. If there is a lack of Tech in the Tech sections, maybe it's because no one has any Tech on which to post about.

I was also under the impression "This Weekend's Achievements" was not exclusively for 4x4 related stuff, though now the benevolent dictator has spoken hopefully the "On Sunday I scratched my ass twice while having a Big Mac (with no gurkin) at Maccas" type posts will be conspicuous because of their absence.

I think we need to remove the bloat. Do we really need a 'Beginners Area' and a 'New Members'? These could be merged. 'Where in the world is ORE' is effectively off topic, so incorporate it into 'Off Topic'. 'Tipps'n'Tricks' has only 19 topics, kill it, with any useful info contained therein merged into another forum. Likewise for 'When the trail wins'. Make 'Engine-General / Drivetrain / Suspension' into 'Drivetrain / Suspension' - there are two dedicated engine forums (Petrol and Diesel)'

Make 'Off Topic' only visible to registered members, and put it right at the bottom of the list of forums. Most importantly lay down some hard and fast rules about where to post and what not to post where. Address the basics and ORE will go from good to great.

I would just like to say thanks to Mike and everyone else concerned with the running of this site for getting it back online

AS my truck is still in panel shop its the only way i can keep up to date with whats going off out there

Once again thanks for a job well done

Kev

smurf182 wrote:I think some would be wise to remember that not everyone just pops out to the garage Saturday morning and drives out the next day with a shiny new custom 4-link rear suspension, SAS, dual transfer setup, V8 engine repower, bobbed flatdeck, crossover steering setup or suchlike accompanied by 100 photos and detailed walkthrough of said modifcation. If there is a lack of Tech in the Tech sections, maybe it's because no one has any Tech on which to post about.

I was also under the impression "This Weekend's Achievements" was not exclusively for 4x4 related stuff, though now the benevolent dictator has spoken hopefully the "On Sunday I scratched my ass twice while having a Big Mac (with no gurkin) at Maccas" type posts will be conspicuous because of their absence.

I think we need to remove the bloat. Do we really need a 'Beginners Area' and a 'New Members'? These could be merged. 'Where in the world is ORE' is effectively off topic, so incorporate it into 'Off Topic'. 'Tipps'n'Tricks' has only 19 topics, kill it, with any useful info contained therein merged into another forum. Likewise for 'When the trail wins'. Make 'Engine-General / Drivetrain / Suspension' into 'Drivetrain / Suspension' - there are two dedicated engine forums (Petrol and Diesel)'

Make 'Off Topic' only visible to registered members, and put it right at the bottom of the list of forums. Most importantly lay down some hard and fast rules about where to post and what not to post where. Address the basics and ORE will go from good to great.

Pretty much to the point. Although not new to my ears but certainly going to be tidied up now I can easily. Should be a different forum tomorrow

Mike

Jerry wrote:I agree with some of that....however ORE has grown from just a 4wd tech forum, a lot of people on here are for the community side of thing as well as the 4wd tech.

I think that this applies to a lot of people judging by the number of people that are regularly on the site.

I know it's part of the reason I spend time on here ...
And When It was shut down I was completely lost as to how I was going to contact people that are setting up trips that I am thinking of getting involved in.

Jerry wrote:The issue here is keeping the 2 different types of content in the appropiate place, yes the offtopic is useful and moderators will need to ensure that all the tech stuff is free of the chat stuff, a little bit of banter is good in the appropiate forum but not the tech sections etc.

This is the key and I believe is relativity simple.

If it is tech or relevant to the tread it's in the right place in the "tech" treads.

If not ... It's "Off topic"

If its off a porn site, abusive, defamatory or degrading any member of the ORE community it should not be posted and should be removed by the moderators.

I believe that with the "project build " treads that comments on the build, help to motivate the builder.
I think that these should be left in until the end of the build.
When the project is completed they can be deleted.

I also think that maybe the tech treads should be locked once they complete.

My thoughts ... Add yours ...
Here is your opportunity to shape your community.

Ha, i still don't get why people think anyone on a 4x4 forum would give a shit about un 4x4 related stuff.

I mean why even post that shit here??

I reckon get rid of offtopic altogether and rename it 4x4 Chit Chat, that why there is somewhere to yack about future and past events, or trademe bargains, but not for crap like "do you prefer butter or marg" or other random bullshit thats all over the place.

Lets just go hard line

I'm with DieselBoy. 4x4 only.

In saying that, its Mikes baby and his rules will apply. What he decides goes. If you don't like the rules don't play the game.

Mike you are a legend. Lesser men would have thrown the toys out of the cot not just to the far end for later.

Dan

If we go 4x4 only, the site MAY lose its appeal to some members.
If the off topic goes, so will the hunting, motorbikes etc (after all, they aren't 4x4's)

If its off topic, it stays in off topic. If its in there and you don't like it and think its a waste of time, don't bitch about it, just don't read the damn thing!

Theres plenty of crap in there, if it doesn't interest me, I don't waste my time whining about it, I go look for a topic that does interest me

This place is a big family of sorts. "ore has been my second home since two days old" etc, and as such some friendly banter is to be expected.

I expect that when i tell Madaz "you would be finished by now if you didnt spend so much time on here" that the comment will be tollerated by moderators and hopefully provide a bit of humor for the related people. But like Dazza85 says, remove my bullshit comments when (if) Madaz finishes his build.

All in all I think Smurf182 has got it pretty right and im stoked thats is the way mike is pointing the site.

Leave some of the off topic stuff, I dont allways talk 4wd with my 4wd mates, thats part of why we are mates. I agree with DaveM. If you dont like therock fm, dont tune in, simple really.

And as for me spelling well, your asking to much.

Cheers to all the moderators and cheers to all who have offered me advice and provided entertainment.

Arron.

A lot of interesting and diverse opinions. isnt THAT what makes us interesting to each other?

If the site is ONLY 4wd, it will lose a lot of appeal to me, I cannot afford to be only 4wd in my interests, like you all, I have many and varied hobbies.

I LOVE to fly online cos I cant afford my own Cresco! Ahhhh I wish.

I also love hunting, in fact, I think it was MY suggestion that a forum be added to cater to just that!! Why? well, you see, the truck is, to me, a means to an end, not neccesarily an end in itself.

It takes me hunting, and now I actually have a reliable wagon, brings me back!! it also takes me fishing, to the shops, to my local computer store etc etc.

No, I do not ONLY discuss the merits of the Mitnistoybaruki, although I can spend hours with my head under a bonnet going, OHHHH and AHHHH dont YOU?

Are you all going to prevent discussion on all and anything?

As Editor, you will have noticed that I dont talk 4wd in my editorials, nobody has complained TO ME about that, I am diverse and varied in my own opinions too. So are you all.

Lets keep this culture we have grown, with LOTS of discussion about lots of things, Yes, moderators are a GOOD THING!! weeding out sleaze, personal attacks et al.

When you are in a knot of your friends at work, the pub, the beach or where ever, do you ONLY talk 4WD and ofroad stuff? I sincerely hope not, You should be a fly on the wall when Ben, Nate, Paul and others are in the hut at night, do you think we are so boring as talk ONLY hunting? We discuss religion, politics, hunting, fishing, history, geology, physics, etc etc. WHY cant we continue THAT discussion HERE?
About the only thing that we dont discuss at all is sex.
Dunno quite why, maybe we dont have to.


Speaking of newsletters, OK, Ok I KNOW we weren't....... BUT Write to me!! argue with me, anything is OK, you all know MY rules about what I will and Will not publish.

Regarding having an "off topic" and other topics

I think that DaveM and Moriaity has got it exactly right

This is excatly how I feel too.

A question for Mike, Will this tread disappear when you do the refresh tonight .
Keep up the great work Mike, I appreciate it.

I think everyone has a view and points to make. Certainly for me 4x4ing is not just 'seeing how quickly I can break my truck' trips, it is normally, like Moriaty, a means to an end, be it exploring some new area, camping, hunting etc etc...

I'm sure there is room in the forums for all of that because it is all related and I'm sure no-one minds the odd quip or two.

It is probably the mindless abuse and misuse of the site that is upsetting Mike et al. The people that do this have to realise that the world does not revolve around them and that there are other opinions and others needs around. Life is a series of exercises in give and take, unfortunatly a mindless narcissistic few are only interested in taking with out any regards to the rest of the community.

Keep it going Mike and co. and well done too!

regards

John

dazza85 wrote:[I believe that with the "project build " treads that comments on the build, help to motivate the builder.
I think that these should be left in until the end of the build.
When the project is completed they can be deleted.

I also think that maybe the tech treads should be locked once they complete.

My thoughts ... Add yours ...
Here is your opportunity to shape your community.

with the project threads, one way other sites do it is have two seperate threads per project, one for the owner/builder only to post in with all the details/pics, and a seperate discussion thread for everyone else... works quite well, check it out http://www.oldschool.co.nz
oh, and if you want to see how much crap can be posted on a forum have a goooood look round oldschool... those guys are unreal at times.[/b]

SupraLux wrote:To those Idiots who would seek to harm ORE,

ORE is my online home... it has been since it was approximately 2 days old. I have spent many countless hours posting here, 4WDing with its members, fixing trucks and helping those who wish to fix their own, offering support and accepting help and support from other members when needed.

So get this right in your heads right now. ORE is a privelidge, not a god given right. Its continual development is underwritten and undertaken not only by Mikes innumerable hours of toil, but also by those who support it - not only financially but with good technical posts, with leading questions that help newbies and oldies alike, and not least by the moderators who weed out the crap on a daily basis.

However, a few days ago the crap got too much and Mike pulled the plug in disgust. Despite my own efforts, and those others who help on the site, it seems some of you can't help yourself, and against my own wants and needs I supported his decision to shut down the site, at least temporarily.

After a short period (less than 2 days) the amount of supporting emails recieved gave Mike a boost - enough to spend even more hours getting the forums back up for us all. To me that shows that there are a large number of members out there that have also had enough of your childish and destructive stupidity. I doubt, however, that there will be any second chances in this - if those of you bent on shaping ORE into a dumb-ass forum for posting whatever shit you feel like continue down your path then it is likely ORE will be lost to us all, for good. IF that happens don't be surprised if there are a few ungrateful ORE members who will be in touch with you.

So, consider this a warning - shape up or ship out. Stop wrecking the best online resource in this country for the 4WDing community. If you have nothing decent to say, just don't say anything.

Steve Dunford
4WD Stuff

Footnote: I want some open discussion on the off topic sections, on post whoring and on threadjacking with a view to some hard and fast rules about consequences - I know we've been there before, but it just doesn't go anywhere. This time it will.

just to get back on topic here

cut the crap

good on ya steve

DaveM wrote:ok, I'm not trying to stir, but here is MY opinion.

The abuse came from a member to took offense to being told to keep what he was posting elsewhere as it was not wanted aa it was not 4wd related.

While I do not agree with the way he went about it, I too never realised that the weekends achievements were ONLY for 4wd related activities.
There have been numerous replies in this topic in the past that are not 4wd related, so perhaps it should be made clear to everyone from now on thats its 4wd related or nothing?

at least someone agrees with me, thank you.

I was probably the person most in shock when Mike pulled the plug after I had been posting in an area where in the past it seemed to be fair game as to what you posted due to the title of the topic/thread??

I took this rather personally as I could see that the plug was pulled due to my constant barrage of posts aimed at my own post being removed, when in the past it seemed this stuff was fine.

As I predicted my cellphone was running hot on the following day with people asking what had happened and was it my fault.

I believe that I was to blame for Mike finally saying that enough was enough. As I feel this has come about because of something I did, I believe an apology is in order.................................




TO ALL ORE MEMBERS, PLEASE TAKE THIS AS A PERSONAL APOLOGY FOR ANY DAMAGE I MAY HAVE DONE AND FOR ANYBODY WHO MAY HAVE SUFFERED FINANCIALLY OR OTHERWISE WHILST THE SITE HAS BEEN OFFLINE.
I NEVER INTENDED FOR THIS TO HAPPEN AND WAS QUITE SHOCKED TO SEE IT EVENTUATE. I BELIEVE THIS SITE IS A VERY STRONG ONE AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE FOR A LONG TIME WITH ALL OF THE SUPPORT THAT IT HAD WITHIN THE 4WD COMMUNITY OF NZ.
I WAS AMAZED TO SEE MY POSTS REMOVED AND WAS MERELY MAKING A POINT TO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY WERE REMOVED WHEN IN THE PAST IT SEEMED TO ME THAT IT WAS ALLRIGHT TO POST WHAT I WAS POSTING IN THE SECTION I WAS POSTING.

MAYBE ONCE THE NEW SITE IS FULLY OPERATIONAL, THE TOPIC IN QUESTION AND ANY OTHER TOPIC THAT MAY CAUSE THE SAME ISSUES, SHOULD BE RENAMED OR EXPLAINED A LITTLE BETTER.

I PERSONALLY WANTED TO OFFER MY SUPPORT ,BUT AT THE TIME I BELIEVE I HAD DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE AND DECIDED THAT KEEPING MY MOUTH SHUT AND MY FINGERS OFF THE KEYBOARD WOULD BE THE APPROPRIATE THING TO DO. I TOO WOULD HAVE OFFERED TO BE A MODERATOR, ALTHOUGH THERE WOULD BE MANY OUT THERE THAT WOULD BE AGAINST IT AND DUE TO MY PERCEPTION OF TOPICS, IT WOULD PROBABLY NOT BE A GREAT IDEA.

HOPEFULLY THE MAJORITY OF YOU WILL SEE THAT I FULLY SUPPORT THIS SITE AND WILL ENDEVOUR TO BE A MODEL USER IN THE FUTURE AND THINK ABOUT WHAT I'M DOING FIRST.

SO TO YOU ALL, AGAIN I SAY THAT I AM VERY SOORY IF THIS HAS CAUSED YOU ANY GRIEF ETC ETC ETC.

skid




P.S. I do take offence to the original post relating to idiots seeking to harm ORE. Yes I can be an idiot at times, but I would never and will never seek to harm ORE.

Please accept my apologies in advance if this is dribble and un-needed comment... but as a 4x4 enthusiast (No, not an owner yet but wanting to become one) I have found this site invaluable!

The vast majority of you guys are very helpful whenever i have asked any questions, and even more helpful are the questions asked by more experienced guys which i would never have thought to ask!

I want to say a big thanks to you all from myself, and on behalf of any others in the same boat as me who are trying to learn some interesting stuff and get to have some fun along the way;-)

Fingers crossed the site keeps going and never ever shuts as once i get a mud chucker of my own there is no doubt i will have more questions, trips to go on, BBQ's to have and beers to drink with anyone who is interested;-)

Cheers
Ike
(Hamilton)