sas surf!

[Petemcc]

Well I'm still not 100% certain but at this stage this seems to be the way my truck is heading I have many many questions and want to get everything sorted before i start to make the conversion as simple as possible.

Some of you may know but some will not, at the moment my truck is a vzn130 surf (91 3L v6 petrol, ifs front and coil rear)
I have a 2 inch body lift and 2 inch suspension lift with 33's and lokka's on both ends.

I am keen to have solid axle front but am not sure what hight and how im going to do it. I still want the truck to handel ok on road. Also the swap will be done on limited funds (very limited!). Because of the money issues coils in the front are not really an option. Also the back flexes ok at the moment but if im going to get the most out of the front that i can then i may as well do the rear to. The rear is at its limits at the moment without making new control arms (if thats what they are called) and to get them well set up i think would be a bit beyond my skills and funds.

Therefore i am thinking of going hilux rears in the front with crossover steer (will get to this soon) and falcon leaves in the rear. It seems a shame to loose the coils but i think it would probably be my best option. This leaf set up is proven to flex amazingly well and is relatively simple to set up and is meant to handel well on the road. Coils on the other hand can give better flex but with a huge lift and great flex i would imagine that the coils will give more body roll and worse road manners than leaves??? appart from more flex and quicker response (good for over rough ground at speed) what are the advantages of coils? the difficulty in setting them up and the body roll puts me off.

How well does the hilux rears and falcons set up perform on the road. I have been told they go very well but just how well is this i.e. how much worse than my current set up. How hard would it be to incorperate sway bars with quick dissconnects into this set up?

wow i have a lot of questions its hard to order them so that they can be answered lol

FRONT END!


RIght this is how i see it.
1) chop out ifs

2) get some 50x50 box and weld to front chassis crossmember with hangers for the front of springs to be bolted to.

3) make mounts for the rear of the spring. Hilux standard rear mount can be used and welded on

4) IFS HUB SWAP

What rotors and calipers do i use. I would like to use my Ifs calipers as i have just recently reconditioned them? Which method do i use for this?

5) Cross over steering

I know that jaffa's stuff is the best and is well worth the money but i don't have that money at this stage so I will be doing with the flipped arm set up. What are the best arms to use. I read that it is good to use a prado arm on the steering box and some sort of land cruiser for the flipped arm? Are the parts that link the two wheels together just standard hilux?

6) mount steering box further forward and tilted a little.

7) shock mounts and bump stops

some sort of longer drive shaft.

At the moment i have the "add" 4wd system how do i make this work with the solid axle. do i need to swap do a normal transferr case?

[Petemcc]

REAR END

This seems easy enough.

Get wide leaf sprung axle. Redrill falcons make new spring hangers, bump stops shock mounts and u bolts.
Easy and cheap.

How hard and expensive are the coils? Am i right to steer clear of them?


That took ages to write and i haven't proof read it so pleas excuse that for now lol. I imagine that this is enough to get the ball rolling. Bring on the advice!!


Cheers Pete

[WACKO]

keep the coils man. it will take a bit more research, but id say they will be a better result in the end. the ride quality of leafs is crud aswell. the higher you go the more bodyroll you will get. what do you want to achieve with it all? what size tyres? theres lots to consider. supralux had leafs on his mu but (im pretty sure) the mus next incarnation will be coils. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2514

id go coils. more work but better results. and may end up the same price if your planing on going high steer etc. im sure others will correct me if wrong on all this.

Sam

just read the part bout fliped arms for high steer.. there goes my cost argument...

[rokhound]

Leave the back end alone at this stage.
Get the front sorted and working. If really good wheel articulation is what you are after, you can forget all about having good road manners (and I mean REALLY good, not just okay).
Where are you planning on driving? For average club truck/mudbunny stuff, you don't need to go to through the head ache of sorting a coil front end, and what you propose is sound. But why get rid of an existing coil rear end, when all it needs is longer control arms? It will take a lot more work to set up leaves in the back than sorting what you already have. All you have to do is cut off the chassis mounts, make some new ones, make new arms, and fit it all with some longer shocks, (panhard may require minor work as well, but that is not much).

Sounds like a good wee number, but if you can't get all the bits together first, don't start! (unless you like walking )

[Petemcc]

Well at the moment it handels great on the road and i like that as i still do a high k's from chch to invercargill and qtwn in my holidays. Hosehustlers truck seems to have great flex for a road going truck and he has said that it handels well also. I plan on having both ends locked so i am happy to comprimise with good flex rather than great flex if it means it will still be ok on the road but by good i still mean a lot better than how my rear flexes at the moment. I want to be able to run 35's but have no desire to go bigger as the gearing will be stuffed on the road. I am quite happy with the gearing i have with the 33's at the moment and depending how it goes on 35's may run 33's most of the time. How hard is it to make new arms and get them to work well on and off road ie correct angles and stuff? What exactly do i need to do?

The main reason i am doing the rear is because the front will be about an inch higher and just lifting the rear another inch is really a waste of time as i would probably end up with less flex due to haveing to extend the bump stops for the 35's. I think i need to go for a ride in some trucks with similar mods to see how they go on the road.

If i go coils in the rear then i would be very keen to run a sway bar with quick disconects. How hard would it be to Incorperate one into a leaf spring front end as well?

Keep the comments coming.

Cheers Pete.

[Engineer]

yea keep it coil rear end like i said ages ago! woo hoo do it pete!
ya might even know a turner who could make ya some new bits! even do ya a deal on labour

get a decent grinder, youve got a fair bit to do

I'll be more than happy to help you out. draw up what you need an ill make it for you.

[LOLYF]

I've used a surf rear end under my hilux. like you i felt the arms were to short, so i had some longer ones made and changed the mounts on the chassis to suit.
To change the mounts i simply cut off the old mounts trimed them down and turned them 180* moved them along the chassis and welded them back on. Its a bit hard to explain but really quite easy.
When the photo albums are back i can post some pics if you like.

Mark

[Jafa]

Hi Pete,
I can do this kit for about $2000 makes the job easy as pie! Not the cheapest method tho We can get any of the individual parts as well, sing out if ya need some prices

http://www.trail-gear.com/sas.html

Cheers
Jafa

[Petemcc]

that looks like a damn good kit! but sadly i don't have the money for it. ill be doing it on the cheap. If i did though it looks like the easy way to go

cheers pete

[Petemcc]

I've used a surf rear end under my hilux. like you i felt the arms were to short, so i had some longer ones made and changed the mounts on the chassis to suit.
To change the mounts i simply cut off the old mounts trimed them down and turned them 180* moved them along the chassis and welded them back on. Its a bit hard to explain but really quite easy.
When the photo albums are back i can post some pics if you like.

Mark

That would be great thanks. How does it flex and how is it on the road?? How did you mount your shocks? Do you know how it compars to a falcon conversion rear end?

Cheers Pete

[LOLYF]

I cant say how it compares to a falcon swap as they seem to be a south island thing! I've never even seen one up here!
As for on road handling i cant say as my truck is still in the build stages and not running yet. The design of my suspenstion was based on MUDZILLA'S truck and his seems to have no handling issues.( and flexes so well the springs fall out )
Shock mounts are standard surf as i have used a comlete rear half of a surf chassis welded to a front half of a solid axle hilux chassis.

[SupraLux]

Ok, all this is just my take on the situation, and its based on your budget more than anything.

Firstly, lets deal with this:

keep the coils man. it will take a bit more research, but id say they will be a better result in the end. the ride quality of leafs is crud aswell.

I totally disagree. The ride quality of a well setup "rears-up-front-coon-in-back" truck is nothing short of very sweet.

supralux had leafs on his mu but (im pretty sure) the mus next incarnation will be coils. viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2514

Simply because I can, I've done a leaf setup, now I'm doing a coil one - its called product development. I would not recommend a first-time IFS to solid axle swap to go coils just because I am doing it on my truck. Leafs are far simpler to get right, easier to correct and cheaper/easier to engineer.

Ok, on to the ideas list... I could write a lot here, but pretty much I agree with everything you are thinking. You'll get a cheap truck with good flex, nice ride (despite what all the North Island Cart-Spring Naysayers will tell you), and pretty good road manners too.

As to the IFS hub swap on the axle - I'm about to write this up as I've taken a few photos of the one I have just done. Pretty much you just put new vented FJ60 or LN130 (same thing) rotors onto the IFS hub (you need to redrill the rotor to bolt it to the hub) and mill 1.5mm off the outside of the caliper (yes, you use your calipers) flat-face and tap it for an M14 metric fine bolt (or use a nut, I think the tapped option was prettier). All will be made clearer shortly on this...

As for doing the front only, you'll probably end up with a nose-high truck so get everything you need for the rear ready because you will probably want to do both ends at the same time. The tiny short arms don't allow you to really lift the truck much beyond 2-3" without problems...

The coons handle nicely on the road, the ride is plush and handling not bad - you will want a torque rod to stop axle wrap and you could easily add a sway bar if it was too rolly for your liking.

Steering, use a flipped arm with machined longer studs. Bolt the first arm down as normal, then flat washers, upside down cone washers, upside down arm and top it off with more spring washers and nuts. The nuts in the middle double-locks it all. If you just bolt it down using long machine screws then you run the risk of having it come apart - two guys have had that happen recently.

Push the box forward and tip it to clear the standard pitman arm over the spring - get an adaptor from Jafa or just have the relay rod machined down after you pull it from your IFS. Cheap option - use a 40-series drag link as its the right length and just adapt things together nicely.Use a factory driveshaft but get it machined slightly to give you a little more travel, you will need all you can get...

ADD just disconnects the front axle assy - remove and ignore - block off the vacuum lines. The pushbutton also engages the front shaft, which is all you are interested in. There is nothing more you need to do to it - it will work fine.


Theres a start

Steve

[DieselBoy]

My comment for what its worth, is that based on how i have read about these swaps going in the past, every one tries to do it on the cheap. $2k gets swallowd up really quick just in parts alone, its not just the major components such as the diff's and springs, but its the small stuff like brake lines, steering set up, new shocks, drive shafts, cert. Som much little stuff that will swallow that $2k in no time.

I reckon you could do the whole job your self at home in the shed, and spend the coin on just the parts.

Say for arguments sake:

Front Diff $250

Rear diff $250, or just modify your existing for leaves

Coon Springs $100

Shocks $150 ea

Steering bits (ball joints, links, arm's etc) $300

Cert $400

Brake Lines $50

Steel $100

Spring hangers x 8 $200

Greasable shackles x8 $200

Bolts and other hardware and consumables (grinding disc's, welding wire and gas, bolts paint etc) $200

I have just guessed roughly at prices, so no slappin me down on that lol

I mean your not gonna use $100 of steel, but if you have to buy a full length of 50X50 box cause you can't scab some off someone else, then thats about what it costs to buy a length.

Its like the spring hanngers, someone might make you some, or you might have to buy some, you might just make simple shackles, or you might buy some greaseable ones.

You may pay more than $250 for a good hilux front end, or someone will give you one that needs a rebuild. You may spend over $250 on just rebuilding it with new bearings and seal kit etc.

What i'm saying is be fully aware of the fact that the cost is quickly going to mount up, so have a contingency plan incase the cost gets up there, and you have to put the project on hold untill the funds become available to continue with the build.

My 2c;)

As you were

[swampa]

the first time i did 1 i just went out and brought an old solid beam axle surf and and swaped the whole lot over, by far the cheapest way

[spanky]

why dont you go to a 3 link front with coils like patrols/80 series cruisers. that is what i am doing to put hilux axles under my other scudo , i am using paj rear arms mounted on top of the axle for more clearance though, and then springs and shocks out whatever will work and i will make a panhard rod to suit, mines not road going so i have got hyd steering for it and a sr20 and 5 spd.
vaughan

[SupraLux]

that looks like a damn good kit! but sadly i don't have the money for it. ill be doing it on the cheap. If i did though it looks like the easy way to go

cheers pete

Actually, I've just had a look at this kit Jafa mentioned - lets do some sums:

Kit price around $2k (Jafa, can you confirm that (or a) price please?) for the following (and I've put rough estimate individual NZ prices beside them so we can do a tally-up)
:
$450/pr * Front Leaf Springs (your choice 3" 4" or 5")
$900ish * High Steer Crossover Steering Kit (this appears to include rods and ends)
$195 * Front Drop Hanger with Greasable Bolts
$200 * Greasable 5" Shackles
$50ish * Frame Tubes & Jigs
$80 * Steering Stabilizer Kit
$149 * U bolt Flip Kit
$175 * Shock Hoops (2)
$400 * Bilstein Shocks (2)
$95 * Front Brake Lines (2)
$150 * Vented Rotors (2)
$100 * Bumpstop Extensions (2)
$350 * Wheel Spacers (2)
$80 * Bumpstops (2)
$20 * Front Axle Gusset
$50 * Axle Diff Armor
$150 * Knuckle Service Kit
$160 * Wheel Bearing Kit (2)
$100 * Motor Mount Cover Plates
$100 * Spring Pad
$priceless * Instructions
=========
$4000 approx (just under I think)

So if you have to get all those parts, then you will be shelling out big money. I know you're doing a budget build, but $2k for $4k worth of parts? Go the TG kit I say. All you need is an axle and a driveshaft and you'll be done.

[Engineer]

are the front beam axles etc the same width as the rear axles of the vzn or ln130 surf?
or is that why there are wheels spacers in that TG kit?

[krawlr]

yep the surf have a wider track(50m.m)got space the front...

[Engineer]

$2000 for that kit seems very very cheap. Save alotta time pissing around measuring stuff up then making it! And the amount of bits youll require that i cant build for ya pete or if i can, by the time you pay for material and i charge i labour even tho id do it cheap for ya it will all add up very fast!
Its almost tempting for me to buy them!!
but if you still want to do this then more than happy to help. if not, how much you want for ya axle?

Ryan.

[Engineer]

just found this..its probably been shown before but its pretty kool and gives a good over view of a sas on a surf with TG parts.

http://www.yotatech.com/f152/my-94-4runner-sas-130215/

Ryan.

[Fakey]

JUst wondering if anyone has used ifs calipers on solid axle hubs? Reason i ask is i want to up grade to vented discs on the front of my 40
(I used 84 solid axle surf brakes for the conversion with solid discs an the thinner calipers)
Do the IFS calipers bolt straight on or require machining/adapters?

[taz01]

how bout this...
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing ... =249518584