Sorry Al I should have used 'Discuss' rather that 'argue' and your opinion and those of others is valuable.
And Goose your are on the right track.
Whilst I agree this is a case of closed access to public land, the AMAF rights are complex in NZ and rather than right now create an issue on that front we choose (Combined 4WD that is) to play the wait and see strategy. As I said if this helps keep out the element of people who could damage the area then it is not a bad thing.
As I see it this is a public forum and technical issues about access I do not want to disclose as not all watchers are necessarily ‘Friendly to 4WD people’ so one slip and we could be giving away valuable information to the wrong people. That means that wearing my ‘Access hat’ I need to be careful what I post here. However that does not preclude others making their point So my choice of words need to be thought about.
However what I can say is that Combined 4WD is against any activity the closes off or shuts off public land. The reason Public land gets locked up is usually due to over use over abuse or damage to sensitive areas. And of course those people (none on this forum I know!) who just want to have a Hoon about, and rip up the environment.
So that is why we some times we need to maybe move to Controlled access, and if that helps solve the issue as to why it is necessary to have controlled access. Controlled access is not necessarily a bad thing, however there are still those who obviously disagree.
Case in point Lake Sumner.
We fought hard to have no gate, no controlled access. We lost. Controlled access was implemented and we agreed to support it as a compromise, and it worked, and all the good guys, us included followed the system and we still got to recreate in the area. The area recovered and in my 30 plus years of going up there it has never been better, but still some of those out there stuck to their high horse, abused the system until some one finally ripped the gate out, now the place is and absolute mess. Even to the point where the farmer has lost about 30 head of cattle to vandals, shot and left lying there. It is an outright disgrace. Now it may not be 4WD people who have done this I hope not, however the public at large are dangerous things.
Net result we have two possible outcomes.
Firstly Farmers are concerned about damage to themselves, their property and their stock should people continue to abuse access and run amuck thought public abusing the system.
Secondly the local bodies and DOC will react and will be forced to lock it up in total!
If that does not work then parliament will change the Acts so that they can
So the chain of events that follow people habitually abusing the system will have its end.
Lake Sumner could very well be the case that drives it.
Now something people may not realise. The farm at Lake Sumner is part owned by the Chair of the Court of Appeal.
So those who want land locked up are just watching us and saying probably ‘Just feed them more rope’ and yes we will hang ourselves.
Paul
4WD Access South Island
<Warning 4wd club member and NZFWDA member>
"Controlled Access" is the way to go, when you can explain to landowners that you are organized and are not talking about just everybody going through their place they are happier to deal with you. It can also help to have just one person dealing with the land owner, so that you build up a relationship. 4 wheelers contact this person rather than hassling the land owner. Commonsense tells you to try and limit the number of days per year the area is used and contribute sometimes with track maintenance or labour.
It's a shame the NZFWDA is so misunderstood. It is run in "zones", dividing NZ into 3 local areas, Northern, north of Taupo, Central, south of Taupo and Southern, whole South Island. Part of the affiliation fee goes back to your zone to help run it. In the zone local clubs get together to discuss land access, track maintenance and interclub events, but in your area, not NZ wide. Last year the Central Zone held a summer campout, open to all NZFWDA members, 6 days of trips and organised campsite, paid for track maintenance on the Whanga rd and Sutherlands track and ran an interclub teams recovery event. Individual CZ clubs ran 3 rounds of the national trials champs (as seen on TV3), all of this over and above what your own club runs.
The National part of the NZFWDA provides resources that your club can make use or if they chose, there is a HS&E manual, Trail torque magazine and practical help for land access like a workshop to share the knowledge about mapping, the law and HSE issues. NZFWDA took out and won the court case on Johnson's rd which establishes that councils can’t close paper roads. It is the leading case in that area of law and is a good result for all outdoor people even though the horseriders, monutainbikers and trampers didn’t come up with any money to engage a lawyer or go to court. Sometimes you need to be a large organization with some money behind you.
The Southern zone is slowly getting more clubs back on board and you will see more NZFWDA events in your town soon. The National trials final will be held in Christchurch during Easter 2007, if you’ve seen it on tv3 you can show NZ how bad ass you are. The national conference will be held in Wellington to enable Mainlanders to get there cheaply.
How different would a Southern Zone be from the Combined clubs?
Andrew Gee
CZ president 2004,2005
"Controlled Access" is the way to go, when you can explain to landowners that you are organized and are not talking about just everybody going through their place they are happier to deal with you. It can also help to have just one person dealing with the land owner, so that you build up a relationship. 4 wheelers contact this person rather than hassling the land owner. Commonsense tells you to try and limit the number of days per year the area is used and contribute sometimes with track maintenance or labour.
It's a shame the NZFWDA is so misunderstood. It is run in "zones", dividing NZ into 3 local areas, Northern, north of Taupo, Central, south of Taupo and Southern, whole South Island. Part of the affiliation fee goes back to your zone to help run it. In the zone local clubs get together to discuss land access, track maintenance and interclub events, but in your area, not NZ wide. Last year the Central Zone held a summer campout, open to all NZFWDA members, 6 days of trips and organised campsite, paid for track maintenance on the Whanga rd and Sutherlands track and ran an interclub teams recovery event. Individual CZ clubs ran 3 rounds of the national trials champs (as seen on TV3), all of this over and above what your own club runs.
The National part of the NZFWDA provides resources that your club can make use or if they chose, there is a HS&E manual, Trail torque magazine and practical help for land access like a workshop to share the knowledge about mapping, the law and HSE issues. NZFWDA took out and won the court case on Johnson's rd which establishes that councils can’t close paper roads. It is the leading case in that area of law and is a good result for all outdoor people even though the horseriders, monutainbikers and trampers didn’t come up with any money to engage a lawyer or go to court. Sometimes you need to be a large organization with some money behind you.
The Southern zone is slowly getting more clubs back on board and you will see more NZFWDA events in your town soon. The National trials final will be held in Christchurch during Easter 2007, if you’ve seen it on tv3 you can show NZ how bad ass you are. The national conference will be held in Wellington to enable Mainlanders to get there cheaply.
How different would a Southern Zone be from the Combined clubs?
Andrew Gee
CZ president 2004,2005
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nuts
- Hard Yaka
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doc regs
who gives a toss wt doc thinks as i wrk offroad heaps and let me tell u they r some of the biggest hippocrits out seen it with me own eyes they get out there in 4x4s thrashing so y shouldnt we as most of us take better care than they do 
any way tax payers own the land not them and we r all taxpayers just coz we like to offroad doesnt mean we trash everything. we have assorted playgrounds 4 thtrashing...and tracks 4 travelling so wots the beaf? nuffing i say just take care as ya go thru and give it shit in ya playgrounds if needed 
any way tax payers own the land not them and we r all taxpayers just coz we like to offroad doesnt mean we trash everything. we have assorted playgrounds 4 thtrashing...and tracks 4 travelling so wots the beaf? nuffing i say just take care as ya go thru and give it shit in ya playgrounds if needed -
Leithfield
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:00 pm
vitara888 wrote: It's a shame the NZFWDA is so misunderstood.
Andrew Gee
CZ president 2004,2005
It's a shame that forums on this website have been commandeered for unashamed NZFWDA hard-sell !!!.
A word of warning that in our obession we may miss what is really happening:
"If his chest had been a cannon, he would have shot his heart upon it." Herman Melville, Moby Dick.
Do contribute and offer your perspective, but please take example from the ettiquette displayed by the Access Co-ordinator for Combined 4WD Clubs Inc.
New Sign Campaign
Those who frequent the Canterbury area with a 4WD will start to see some new signs appearing.
They are based on:-
ABUSE IT
LOSE IT!
These signs have been designed, paid for and also put up by members of Combined 4WD Clubs.
The current locations are in areas fairly sensitive and where we want to remind 4WD drivers to KEEP TO THE TRACK. And they are aimed at the uneducated people who think that it if fair go to rip up any landscape in a 4WD vehicle, Motor Bike or Quad.
We picked the Theme Abuse it lose it because that is exactly what will happen if vehicles rip up the countryside.
If any one notices during their travels a sensitive area that you think may need one of our signs than please lets know by making a post here.
They are based on:-
ABUSE IT
LOSE IT!
These signs have been designed, paid for and also put up by members of Combined 4WD Clubs.
The current locations are in areas fairly sensitive and where we want to remind 4WD drivers to KEEP TO THE TRACK. And they are aimed at the uneducated people who think that it if fair go to rip up any landscape in a 4WD vehicle, Motor Bike or Quad.
We picked the Theme Abuse it lose it because that is exactly what will happen if vehicles rip up the countryside.
If any one notices during their travels a sensitive area that you think may need one of our signs than please lets know by making a post here.
You may be aware of Andy Cockrofts new Paper Road Society http://www.prs.org.nz , I assume this is NZ wide, Andy is the past pres of the NZ 4wd assn and a stalwart on 4wd access, you should perhaps get in contact with him as he has a lot of experience getting/keeping access not to mention its probably good to bounce ideas off each other and keep each other in the loop.
70 series prado (KZJ78) and 90 Series Prado (KZJ95)
Perhaps we can work with DOC etc to help set up voluntary controlled access eg help them with working bees litter planting etc, if you want access then the clubs can go in (if they have a key) otherwise its a simple permit so you know who has gone in.
Surely its better to work with people who manage the land we play on rather than fighting them.......in the examples where this has happened (was it a west coast track?) its worked.
OK I'll admit I'm in the same 4wd assn club as Vitara888 however in sensitive areas an open gate policy will just let idiots and morons in to ruin the access we have previously gained. if we aren't being seen to be self managed then that is when the greenies will say close it all.
Just my thoughts, I have had a diccussion with a council officer recently (off the record), you will find they are usually prepared to help as they are only responding to a problem, especially if that help is going both ways eg working together. The old attitudes of 4wd'ers must change...councils and doc etc have a responsability to look after their patch plus balance the needs of recreational users.
just my 10 cents....
Surely its better to work with people who manage the land we play on rather than fighting them.......in the examples where this has happened (was it a west coast track?) its worked.
OK I'll admit I'm in the same 4wd assn club as Vitara888 however in sensitive areas an open gate policy will just let idiots and morons in to ruin the access we have previously gained. if we aren't being seen to be self managed then that is when the greenies will say close it all.
Just my thoughts, I have had a diccussion with a council officer recently (off the record), you will find they are usually prepared to help as they are only responding to a problem, especially if that help is going both ways eg working together. The old attitudes of 4wd'ers must change...councils and doc etc have a responsability to look after their patch plus balance the needs of recreational users.
just my 10 cents....
70 series prado (KZJ78) and 90 Series Prado (KZJ95)
Hi Jerry thanks for your thoughts
We are really on the same wave length here. Combined 4WD clubs really does work well down here with DOC, Regional Councils and the like, and that is exactly how the ABUSE IT LOSE IT campaign got off the ground. The logic of a sign campaign is fully supported by them locally and in the Twizel Area DOC actually puts our Logo on their signs. Basically we need to change people’s behaviour. So time will tell how this goes, but certainly if we do get a better standard of behaviour of all drivers off road that will be good, then we think we can work on more working bees and the like too, so at this stage it is slowly as we go and we will move on from there and you are right it is all about working with land owners not against them.
Paul
We are really on the same wave length here. Combined 4WD clubs really does work well down here with DOC, Regional Councils and the like, and that is exactly how the ABUSE IT LOSE IT campaign got off the ground. The logic of a sign campaign is fully supported by them locally and in the Twizel Area DOC actually puts our Logo on their signs. Basically we need to change people’s behaviour. So time will tell how this goes, but certainly if we do get a better standard of behaviour of all drivers off road that will be good, then we think we can work on more working bees and the like too, so at this stage it is slowly as we go and we will move on from there and you are right it is all about working with land owners not against them.
Paul
It may be beneficial to have a chat to someone in the 4wd assn eg Peter Vahry or Geoff Anders perhaps? see what they are doing re land access and vice versa, perhaps they could get you to do a little talk at the next NZ4WD assn conference next year? or have a meeting with the 4wd assn Southern Zone reps, perhaps a sort of affiliation ????, this would be great in the north Island and for all of the 4wd "groups" out there.
There are 4wd Assn clubs in the South, the NZ4WD & Sport Vehicles Mag lists Land Rover Owners Club Otago, and Otago Recreational 4wd Group, Don't forget the Off Road Express Association which is NZ wide and part of the Assn and has a lot of south Island members. (this list may not be correct)
There are 4wd Assn clubs in the South, the NZ4WD & Sport Vehicles Mag lists Land Rover Owners Club Otago, and Otago Recreational 4wd Group, Don't forget the Off Road Express Association which is NZ wide and part of the Assn and has a lot of south Island members. (this list may not be correct)
70 series prado (KZJ78) and 90 Series Prado (KZJ95)
Information Please
Did the Access person from Combined attend the NZ Recreation Summitt in Wellington, Myself and 3 others from the NZFWDA were there.
I would like to hear your comments on this.
I would like to hear your comments on this.
Combined 4WD Clubs did not attend the summit, and as you were there, you would know that, so I cannot see why you made a comment and a question of us on this forum?
As you and NZ4WDA attended and got involved; do you think more could be achieved, and be a better use of space and time for you to update us all on this forum as to the outcomes of the summit and the likely impacts both positive and negative on recreational 4WD activities?
Regards
Paul
As you and NZ4WDA attended and got involved; do you think more could be achieved, and be a better use of space and time for you to update us all on this forum as to the outcomes of the summit and the likely impacts both positive and negative on recreational 4WD activities?
Regards
Paul
No i didnt know if you were there or not, sorry but i wasnt looking for you with over 200 people present??
My question was to find out if you were there because i was interested in your views on it. I believed that you would have been there.
Its a shame that you have turned a simple question into remarks like this.
Comments on the outcome will be posted in the ORE Club
Nick
My question was to find out if you were there because i was interested in your views on it. I believed that you would have been there.
Its a shame that you have turned a simple question into remarks like this.
Comments on the outcome will be posted in the ORE Club
Nick
access4WD wrote:Combined 4WD Clubs did not attend the summit, and as you were there, you would know that, so I cannot see why you made a comment and a question of us on this forum?
As you and NZ4WDA attended and got involved; do you think more could be achieved, and be a better use of space and time for you to update us all on this forum as to the outcomes of the summit and the likely impacts both positive and negative on recreational 4WD activities?
Regards
Paul
it always amazes me how much more is read into an email or forum post - whereas when we talk face to face - inflection over comes slightly incorrect sentances etc.
Plus some peoples posts come across really grumpy, easily offended and/or officous when I am sure that is usually not the intention.
Best idea is to assume that there is no intention to belittle, lambast, abuse etc - ie treat every word as a speech that comes from the Pope to a Moslem audience.
Yes we can work together, but do it off this forum. I would suggest.
If Combined 4WD Clubs needs to work with NZ4WDA on issues we know where you are and we will contact you at your official address.
Likewise if NZ4WDA wants our (Combined 4WD Clubs) input then get them to contact us directy too, Our address is no secret we have a web site http://www.4wd.org.nz and our snail mail address is at the bottom of all my postings on this forum.
Cheers and regards
Paul
If Combined 4WD Clubs needs to work with NZ4WDA on issues we know where you are and we will contact you at your official address.
Likewise if NZ4WDA wants our (Combined 4WD Clubs) input then get them to contact us directy too, Our address is no secret we have a web site http://www.4wd.org.nz and our snail mail address is at the bottom of all my postings on this forum.
Cheers and regards
Paul
Sorry Nick but I think you have missed the point.
I started this thread introducing what input to this forum that I was prepared to make as an access person that may help and assist members of this forum for their benefit. I am not here to debate issues relating to what you refer to as misunderstandings over NZ4WDA.
NZ4WDA is a great organisation and is doing a great job. I have no doubts about that, In the South Island Clubs don’t share the view that NZ4WDA will assist then hence not many clubs belong to NZ4WDA. Is that good or bad? frankly I have no view on that, and I like many others here probably don’t care. However what is important to me and Clubs in the South Island are the local issues we are working on down here and we have many to keep us out of trouble, enough to totally use up my free time. So I have to make choices either spend my time here debating with people from NZ4WDA who feel misunderstood or sorting out local Access issues I choose the latter.
And as I say if you need us you have my address.
Regards.
Paul
I started this thread introducing what input to this forum that I was prepared to make as an access person that may help and assist members of this forum for their benefit. I am not here to debate issues relating to what you refer to as misunderstandings over NZ4WDA.
NZ4WDA is a great organisation and is doing a great job. I have no doubts about that, In the South Island Clubs don’t share the view that NZ4WDA will assist then hence not many clubs belong to NZ4WDA. Is that good or bad? frankly I have no view on that, and I like many others here probably don’t care. However what is important to me and Clubs in the South Island are the local issues we are working on down here and we have many to keep us out of trouble, enough to totally use up my free time. So I have to make choices either spend my time here debating with people from NZ4WDA who feel misunderstood or sorting out local Access issues I choose the latter.
And as I say if you need us you have my address.
Regards.
Paul
madaz068 wrote:I understand your wish's Bill but at present i think in here is the best place considering the miss understanding about the NZFWDA. I think public eye is the best for this, we have nothing to hide.
I understand that, I mean your discussions with Access4WD.
-----------------------
Who knew Prados could fly?
Who knew Prados could fly?
access4WD wrote:Sorry Nick but I think you have missed the point.
I started this thread introducing what input to this forum that I was prepared to make as an access person that may help and assist members of this forum for their benefit. I am not here to debate issues relating to what you refer to as misunderstandings over NZ4WDA.
NZ4WDA is a great organisation and is doing a great job. I have no doubts about that, In the South Island Clubs don’t share the view that NZ4WDA will assist then hence not many clubs belong to NZ4WDA. Is that good or bad? frankly I have no view on that, and I like many others here probably don’t care. However what is important to me and Clubs in the South Island are the local issues we are working on down here and we have many to keep us out of trouble, enough to totally use up my free time. So I have to make choices either spend my time here debating with people from NZ4WDA who feel misunderstood or sorting out local Access issues I choose the latter.
And as I say if you need us you have my address.
Regards.
Paul
the good thing about forums like this is that you can pick and chose who or what you reply to. If you don't want to debate issues then don't
say what you need to say and leave it at that. Hopefully everyone here has the same goal- to prevent the closure of tracks because of idiots and to maintain access for responsible 4WDers. How this is done isn't really important as long as we get the desired outcome. There will always be people who don't agree with the way things happen, my advice to them is if you don't like it, put your hand up and get elected so you can have a go, but don't hassle the person who has got off their butt and is trying to do something about it. If we remember the first post in this thread Paul said "My interests are only really access so please don't attack the messenger if members have issues with 4WD Clubs, I cannot assist in that regard". So lets try and stay on topic here. This thread is about access not 4WD clubs.***Got the balls, just ain't got the bucks***
access4WD wrote:Sorry Nick but I think you have missed the point.
I started this thread introducing what input to this forum that I was prepared to make as an access person that may help and assist members of this forum for their benefit. I am not here to debate issues relating to what you refer to as misunderstandings over NZ4WDA.
NZ4WDA is a great organisation and is doing a great job. I have no doubts about that, In the South Island Clubs don’t share the view that NZ4WDA will assist then hence not many clubs belong to NZ4WDA. Is that good or bad? frankly I have no view on that, and I like many others here probably don’t care. However what is important to me and Clubs in the South Island are the local issues we are working on down here and we have many to keep us out of trouble, enough to totally use up my free time. So I have to make choices either spend my time here debating with people from NZ4WDA who feel misunderstood or sorting out local Access issues I choose the latter.
And as I say if you need us you have my address.
Regards.
Paul
Im sorry Paul but i totally disagree with you when it comes to your comments about the NZFWDA in the South Island. We work very hard for all our Clubs in NZ including our new Club "Off Road Express 4x4". If local access is so important, why didnt you attend the NZ Rec Summit in Wellington? This is why the NZFWDA had 4 people attend, for all our clubs, fighting for access in both Islands.
I suggest you qualify your statements a little better next time. Stop this bullshit, about combined looking after the south island because you have more clubs, this perhaps might be wrong and start working as a united front. People are a little sick of it.
Everyone......
The NZFWDA is here to Help you in all areas of 4wding. Not complain about other groups.
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mike
- Last minute Mike
- Posts: 3545
- Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:00 pm
- Location: Christchurch - The place I'd like to be
Re: acess
TRUBIL wrote:Nick I think it is time that you stopped the BULLSHIT and looked at what has been put on this thread or is this just your ego getting out of control??
I would like to see this thread get back on track as well, so throwing more logs on the fire isnt really helping is it :scratch:
1973 SWB Land Rover V8 Hybrid
1994 Toyota Surf
1994 Toyota Surf
Well to get this back on thread I have a question about some recent land handover to the government. Earlier this year I gained access through 4 stations behind Lake Waikatpu for an small ORE trip, some of the roads had not been travelled on for 11 years. Some of these have now been handed back to the government namely on Greenstone station. Any ideas on how this will effect access as there is so much land in there I would still like to expore lke to explore.
Al
Al
rain, hail, sleet or snow, we go!