Diesel Fuel Additives

[Windsock]

So what about the fact that a foam filter gets electrically charged by the airflow.

Not heard this fact before, does the same happen to a paper filter? If not, why not and if so, how, and what does this electrical charge do?

Using what a manufacturers reconmends as a guide for what is best is th biggest load of crap out there!!!!!!!!
A manuacturer is interest in one thing MONEY. How it can make more and how it can save more.

Now, applying this logic to the oiled cotton filters and their manufacturers, I think some of the claims made are also designed to sell their product don't you?

I say the only good oiled cotton out there is called an oilskin raincoat and I don't want that to let any damn thing through!

[Windsock]

Is a paper filter going to turn to custard when driving in heavy rain (I have a snorkel)?

...+ paper filters dont work well when wet

I found that by placing a 'sump' between the snorkel and the paper filter, I can drive in torrential rain no worries. Simple piece of plumbing if you've got the room. Also catches big lumps of crud and dust also settles there. Main task though was to place an outlet to trap and dispose of water as and when it got into the air intake system.


This 'sump' is a piece of plumbing common enough about the place. I had to insert some 3 inch steel 'zorst tube into the end to give the flexi-hose something to mount onto. The lowest part of the sump has a cap sealed with a massive o-ring.

[KiwiBacon]

typically they have a cyclonic seperator in them .. so they dont really count... unless you put on a prefilter

The seperators can take out about half the dust each time. So with two (cyclone prefilter then cyclone filter housing) you've still got about 1/4 of the dust heading straight to the element.

Inside the main element is a secondary "safety" element, this one is only there in case the main element gets damaged. It remains perfectly clean unless there's something badly wrong.

[KiwiBacon]

Is a paper filter going to turn to custard when driving in heavy rain (I have a snorkel)?
Are these pre filters really that good at collecting dust and saving a new air filter every 10k km?

If you have a donaldson head on your snorkle, they're supposed to have a drain hole at the back which catches and removes all the water. I don't have a snorkle myself so it's never worried me (I stay away from water that deep). Point the snorkel head backwards to collect the least dust, rain and insects.

Yes cyclone prefilters work well at catching dust. Find a vehicle or machine that runs one and see how much it's caught.

[vvega]

typically they have a cyclonic seperator in them .. so they dont really count... unless you put on a prefilter

The seperators can take out about half the dust each time. So with two (cyclone prefilter then cyclone filter housing) you've still got about 1/4 of the dust heading straight to the element.

Inside the main element is a secondary "safety" element, this one is only there in case the main element gets damaged. It remains perfectly clean unless there's something badly wrong.

i thought they were rated to a particulate size i.e has to be a certain wieght to be effective .. but i guess thats also reliant on velocity
could well be wrong ... i just use a pon in mine ATM but plan to change that when i finish the snokle setup and before i go off roading

[nivaman]

oh right well for my latest tank i got 556km to 57 liters and i got 9.6km so higher would be better correct? i know people work it out by liters used per 100 km which you want to be lower to be better... but i'm unsure as to how you do that, would be keen to know how tho?

http://www.milesgallon.com
http://www.mdocuk.co.uk/mpg_calculator.htm

[KiwiBacon]

i thought they were rated to a particulate size i.e has to be a certain wieght to be effective .. but i guess thats also reliant on velocity
could well be wrong ... i just use a pon in mine ATM but plan to change that when i finish the snokle setup and before i go off roading

Particle size will definitely have an effect, it's much easier and quicker to throw out the bigger particles than the small ones.

[darinz]

So what about the fact that a foam filter gets electrically charged by the airflow.

Not heard this fact before, does the same happen to a paper filter? If not, why not and if so, how, and what does this electrical charge do?

quote]

Opposite charges attract each other so it takes out the very small particals. It is about static electricity so some plastics generate a lot of but paper etc doesn't. I can't remember all of the physic as it has been a while!!!

Snorkels are actually designed to lift the air intake to get above the worst of the dust and the cooler air higher above the road surface. It is only idiots like us that are now using the design to also allow crossing of deeper water.

Any of the ram heads that sit on the top of snorkels have a water seperation design and they work very well as long as the head is on properly. So even if you have a custom made snorkel, you should buy a proper ram head for it. Donaldson do all sorts of sizes and the 4" one I have is less than $30 so they aren't dear for the protection they give.

I see a problem with the sump design (maybe). Does the water just get caught there or is there an automatic drain system? If the water just gets caught then what happens when it fills up and then you hit a bump going up hill? Also if the water is fine enough it will be airbourne so will just float over in the airstream. A simple ducks bill drain would solve this problem though.

[KiwiBacon]

Snorkels are actually designed to lift the air intake to get above the worst of the dust and the cooler air higher above the road surface. It is only idiots like us that are now using the design to also allow crossing of deeper water.

I reckon that's just marketing BS.
The air isn't cooler higher off the road and there's exactly the same amount of dust present 1.5m off the ground as there is at 1m off the ground. The snorkle intake being further rearward may mean more dust is present there.

The reality is, most snorkels are sold for the look, it's a small percentage of those who own them who actually need them for water crossings. If you want a cold air intake, you can acheive it with about 1.5m less piping than your average snorkle.

I reckon the "electrical charge" effect on oiled cotton filters is marketing BS too. What they're really saying is "we know our filters are full of holes that you can drive a bus through, so here's a technical sounding explation to confuse most of you into still buying something your engine will hate".

[Windsock]

So what about the fact that a foam filter gets electrically charged by the airflow.

Not heard this fact before, does the same happen to a paper filter? If not, why not and if so, how, and what does this electrical charge do?

quote]

Opposite charges attract each other so it takes out the very small particals. It is about static electricity so some plastics generate a lot of but paper etc doesn't. I can't remember all of the physic as it has been a while!!!

Snorkels are actually designed to lift the air intake to get above the worst of the dust and the cooler air higher above the road surface. It is only idiots like us that are now using the design to also allow crossing of deeper water.

Any of the ram heads that sit on the top of snorkels have a water seperation design and they work very well as long as the head is on properly. So even if you have a custom made snorkel, you should buy a proper ram head for it. Donaldson do all sorts of sizes and the 4" one I have is less than $30 so they aren't dear for the protection they give.

I see a problem with the sump design (maybe). Does the water just get caught there or is there an automatic drain system? If the water just gets caught then what happens when it fills up and then you hit a bump going up hill? Also if the water is fine enough it will be airbourne so will just float over in the airstream. A simple ducks bill drain would solve this problem though.

Ah, righto, understand your comment now regarding electricity.

Yep, have a safari snorkel head on the top. This does to a certain extent remove water but it is surprising how much still makes it though to the sump. At times I do turn it away from facing forward but usually only to avoid scrub and trees running up the snorkel and catching it. I am however still only talking about a cup full (out of about a 1 litre capacity) and I check it regularly if I have been driving in the rain. Made it so it is easy to do and has become a part of the regular under bonnet checks - radiator, oil, window washer, sump etc... also made it expressly for water crossing as I didn't like any of the plastic snorkels I saw.



If the sump gets full to the point of tipping over into the air box on cornering or hill climbing then I must have really screwed up somewhere. I've crossed rivers up to the bonnet level and this is the greatest risk to water build-up in the air intake due to leaks somewhere - hence my not installing an automatic "duck bill" dumper, at times it'd be underwater itself and, well.... Obviously if I cross that deep there are immediate checks that I do before carrying on...

[DieselBoy]

Before you guys get all crazy on the foam filtres and scare everyone away from them for good........

How many of you have owned a MX Bike, or Trail bike???

You must have past them out while out on a 4x4 trip somewhere?? You know, the ones you pass where the rider and bike are indistinguishable from each other as they are so plastered in shit

You also realise that the MX bikes, and the majority of trail bikes are a highly tuned, high performance 2 stroke's???

A little fact about 2 strokes:
The air is drawn directly into the crankcase through into the BIG END BEARINGS before it gets into the combustion chamber.

These motors will also rev in excess of 12,000rpm.

So before you go slamming foam filters, think about the fact that manufacturers of these expensive two wheeled high perfomance toy's, that see some of the harshest conditions out there, run the traditional oiled-foam filters.

[KiwiBacon]

Before you guys get all crazy on the foam filtres and scare everyone away from them for good........

How many of you have owned a MX Bike, or Trail bike???

You must have past them out while out on a 4x4 trip somewhere?? You know, the ones you pass where the rider and bike are indistinguishable from each other as they are so plastered in shit

You also realise that the MX bikes, and the majority of trail bikes are a highly tuned, high performance 2 stroke's???

A little fact about 2 strokes:
The air is drawn directly into the crankcase through into the BIG END BEARINGS before it gets into the combustion chamber.

These motors will also rev in excess of 12,000rpm.

So before you go slamming foam filters, think about the fact that manufacturers of these expensive two wheeled high perfomance toy's, that see some of the harshest conditions out there, run the traditional oiled-foam filters.

They use foam filters because there is absolutely no room for anything else. What are the service intervals (hours) on a dirt bike foam filter again?

[DieselBoy]

Before you guys get all crazy on the foam filtres and scare everyone away from them for good........

How many of you have owned a MX Bike, or Trail bike???

You must have past them out while out on a 4x4 trip somewhere?? You know, the ones you pass where the rider and bike are indistinguishable from each other as they are so plastered in shit

You also realise that the MX bikes, and the majority of trail bikes are a highly tuned, high performance 2 stroke's???

A little fact about 2 strokes:
The air is drawn directly into the crankcase through into the BIG END BEARINGS before it gets into the combustion chamber.

These motors will also rev in excess of 12,000rpm.

So before you go slamming foam filters, think about the fact that manufacturers of these expensive two wheeled high perfomance toy's, that see some of the harshest conditions out there, run the traditional oiled-foam filters.

They use foam filters because there is absolutely no room for anything else. What are the service intervals (hours) on a dirt bike foam filter again?

Since when??? Road bikes have the same sort of space available, and they use paper elements as they are not subject to such harsh conditions.

Like i said in my earlier post a couple of pages back, the foam "finer filter" i had on my Safari filtered really well, but need servicing at least every 5000k's, if not after every trip as it blocked up quickly due to reduced surface area.

I'm not denying that they need servicing regularly, what i am saying is that as a filtering medium, they are one of the best.

Also, don't confuse a good foam filter like "Uni Filter" or "Finer Filter" with some cheap knock off like what you get as a foam pod filter from Repco.

Also the oil used is critical, I always went to the bike shop's and got the good stuff they use, like Bellray or Rockoil.

I brought the finer filter from DaveM 2nd hand, as he didn't like it due to the oil that was supplied with the filter running out of the foam after a short period of time. I started putting the Bellray stuff in it that i used on my bikes, and it was awesome, apart from the regular servicing.

[darinz]

Exactly, foam is a pefectly good filter and does a very good job and can be serviced easily. No one has said anywhere that paper is no good, far from it, but foam is it's equal (if not better) and can be cleaned and re used as often as you like. I've had a foam filter so blocked by liquid mud that it collasped. All I had to do (during a comp) was clean it, push it back to shape and keep using it. Any paper filter would have been toast after this.

[darinz]

Snorkels are actually designed to lift the air intake to get above the worst of the dust and the cooler air higher above the road surface. It is only idiots like us that are now using the design to also allow crossing of deeper water.

I reckon that's just marketing BS.
The air isn't cooler higher off the road and there's exactly the same amount of dust present 1.5m off the ground as there is at 1m off the ground. The snorkle intake being further rearward may mean more dust is present there.

The reality is, most snorkels are sold for the look, it's a small percentage of those who own them who actually need them for water crossings. If you want a cold air intake, you can acheive it with about 1.5m less piping than your average snorkle.

I reckon the "electrical charge" effect on oiled cotton filters is marketing BS too. What they're really saying is "we know our filters are full of holes that you can drive a bus through, so here's a technical sounding explation to confuse most of you into still buying something your engine will hate".

Are you arguing that a hole is a better filter than a hole and an electrical attraction? Sounds like a pretty stupid arguement when you put it that way!

[KiwiBacon]

Are you arguing that a hole is a better filter than a hole and an electrical attraction? Sounds like a pretty stupid arguement when you put it that way!

Nope.
Every force in the whole universe is the result of electrical attraction, to claim one particular filter works better because it uses electrical attraction is complete and utter BS.
Every filter in the world uses it to hold dust and you can guarantee that filters with electrical attraction without big holes works better than filters with big holes.

I save my stupid arguments for weekends. We're not there yet.

[darinz]

So lets have a few beers and continue the discussion when we can get really abstract!!!!!!

[Bill]

So... how about those fuel additives ay?
An old guy at work tells me he runs 20% avgas in his LD28 powered commodore and says he gets HUGE power gains compaired to straight diesel, havent been game enough to try it yet maybe 1L at a time wouldnt hurt, DO NOT USE 91 OR 95 he tells me...

[tallsam66]

AV gas & number 1 racing both still have lead in them which is a good lubricant.

[KiwiBacon]

AV gas & number 1 racing both still have lead in them which is a good lubricant.

Good poison too.

[nivaman]

Good poison too.

Apparently.

[Fourbyfour]

Well, My Finer (air) Filter was so bad for the engine that my Terrano whom I sold to my brotherin law about two years ago has just hit 420,00km without ever having the head off. The thing just keeps trucking. The Finer air filters have been in use on it continuously since October 1999 when the Terrano had 106,000km on the clock. So much for people saying it would do all sorts of damage to the engine. At the end of every month the filter is washed in a Simple Green/water solution, dried reoiled and put back on the vehicle. I always carry a spare sleeve sleeve with me in a ziploc plastic bag so can do an easy change at the side of the road.