Loacl recovery squads

[Leithfield]

Security Caution

While I completely support the idea of an ORE 4wd recovery database, some caution must be registered as to the sensitivity of the information contained and its possible criminal manipulation .

It would indeed be unfortunate if a public forum project of such good intent was permitted to present an opportunistic 'shopping list' for the criminal element ... resplendent with contact details to aid said scrotes ascertain whether or not the owner is at home.

Mike, might I propose a system where:
1/ This service is an ORE paid-member only priviledge (strong incentive to support ORE)
2/ The information is securely stored on-line & accessible pre-trips (requires some pre-planning) via a moderator controlled password
3/ Access requires sign-in (audit trail) and acceptance of guarantee not to publicly disclose/disperse the information contained .

Leithfield

[SPHINX]

We could have done with some one with a winch last night at the wiamak, but didnt know anyones number to ring its a bit hard to look at the internet when your out in the mud in the dark.

Ha Ha must have been something about the mac on Saturday night. I had my Cruiser stuck for 4 1/2 hours in a big mud pit. Winch would have been awesome!

The security on everyones info is a very good idea. Sure people wouldn't mind chipping in!?

[H2OLOVA]

Security Caution





might I propose a system where:

1/ This service is an ORE paid-member only priviledge (strong incentive to support ORE)
2/ The information is securely stored on-line & accessible pre-trips (requires some pre-planning) via a moderator controlled password
3/ Access requires sign-in (audit trail) and acceptance of guarantee not to publically disclose/disperse the information contained .

All for option one, could be a good way to raise funds for club. Charge a token fee for help(helps stop people abusing service) which is paid to club. Helps pay for the fanta at xmas!!

A printable phonelist would be easier to carry in your truck. Don't need too many details, only name and phone number.
We would need trucks to have a minimum level of recovery gear.
Albundy also mentioned breakages incurred during recovery. All these things need to be considered. One snatch strap costs $60-80. I'd be keen to help out, but don't want to indirectly end up subsidising recovery for others.

[Insky]

soundsz like a good plan mate

[spanky]

sounds like a good idea,we have been in 42 traverse on quite a few occasions pulling people out of the shit ,so would be keen to help if stuck in the nat park central plateau area ,scudo not road legal but have quads aswell, tirfor strops chainsaw tow ropes soon find whatever else needed, bourbon only though

vaughan

[SupraLux]

to raise funds for club

Nonononononono.

To support and pay for the ongoing existence of OffRoadExpress.co.nz

The club can, should and bloody well better support itself...

My 2c

[Leithfield]

Ok have thought about this overnight and the best and simple way is for me to modify the personal information page in "your account" and people can enter all their details about contact information, recovery equipment, vehicle type/setup and the most important piece of information is a toggle for availability(person might go away that weekend so turns it off so no longer is in printable list). The printable page will be taken from all active toggles in members profiles.
Mike

Agreed H20LOVA, a printable phone list that could be kept in ones glovebox would be invaluable.

Consideration of the implication of the data contained must be afforded and access regulated, if advantage is to be balanced against potential risk. If all of the detail Mike proposed* were to be published that presents a valuable cache of information to the criminal fraternity, and conceivably, even those who see fit to conspire against ORE.
*(not knocking you Mike, just trying to raise awareness - I appreciate it is the individual who will ultimately determine the content of their proferred data)

100% support on the recovery gear, and recovering the cost of any breakages/reasonable expenses.

[mike]

All good points, I may removed the vehicle modifications and recovery equipment fields and just have a recovery experience field. that way if you know what your talking about you should have the gear to cover it and criminals are so bloody stupid and thick they couldn't put 2 and 2 together even if there lives depended on it!

what do you think mobile numbers and home numbers or just mobile numbers only? removes the tie to the location where people keep their precious

I think it is a good idea to keep it to payed members, at least that way the crims have to pay to get the information . Another way of access to the list could also be by nomination. Someone needs to nominate you in order for you to access the list, or perhaps a minimum number of posts in the forums. Just some thoughts on tightening access to strangers. Let me know what you think while it is still relatively easy to change things.
Mike

[Leithfield]

criminals are so bloody stupid and thick they couldn't put 2 and 2 together even if there lives depended on it!
Mike

If only that were true - handbrake is ex-Detective, with many friends still serving, and will tell you in no uncertain terms that we underestimate the cunning of crims at our own peril.

[wjw]

to raise funds for club

Nonononononono.

To support and pay for the ongoing existence of OffRoadExpress.co.nz

The club can, should and bloody well better support itself...

My 2c

I agree with the above 100% site membership subs should goto keeping ore.co.nz live... nothing else

[H2OLOVA]

I must be a criminal cause i'm all confused

Will this database will be available to anyone who logs onto ORE? Mike mentioned having it available to paying members only. So is the idea that we pay to be members of ORE and pay another sub for the club. I'm happy either way but i don't want to go helping someone who decides that the $'s to call us out is a whole heap cheaper than the $280 4x4 boy paid to recover his truck and then is never available to help anyone else in their moment of need. Also having it available to the general public as such, could run us into trouble with OSH if things were to get pear shaped during a recovery. I think we would get away with the excuse of "helping out a fellow member" but could run into trouble if we're providing a service to the public.

[mike]

Another good point raised. I think we need to lock it down to active payed members of the site. So People that have been using the site ie are known by other members (by use of the site or by having met the person). This stops people cruising in paying the membership just for access to cheap recovery. I dont think under any circumstance that the general public ie. regular members of the site should have access to this information.

Mike

[Goose]

I rekon your idea of being "nominated" is a good idea(and a member too), it then keeps it to people who are trusted. (ie, mike ok's steve, who oks mongoose, who...).
Another idea could be that we have say, 5 members numbers,(per "region??, say mike, steve, leith, al etc) and they then co-ordinate a response by accessing a private forum on ORE.....
That way, information would be kept by trusted individuals....
just my 2cents....

[H2OLOVA]

Another good point raised. I think we need to lock it down to active payed members of the site.

Mike

With this in mind, and the idea of a fee for recovery (paid to ORE.co.nz OK Supralux!!) would it be sensible to get more information from members when they initially sign up. Obviously only viewable by those god like persons who run this site.

For example;
I go out and help x, the site charge him $ for recovery, while i'm helping him i break 1 strap, so in effect x owes ORE for recovery and me for the strap. We get x out and x drives home. do we have the contact details available to locate x and beat the cash out of them if they don't cough up the $. We could get regos of vehicles recovered easily enough and with a trip to the Post shop could get details that way. But would be simple to send message to God who could contact on behalf of ORE and get payment?
When you sign up as a paying member of ORE you agree to the terms and conditions, one of which is- If you call someone to rescue you then you agree to pay all reasonable costs incurred.

Or is this getting to technical????

[Aaron]

It all sounds a bit complex with having to pay different people

No matter what you try and do crooks will always get the info they want.

Maybe just a cell number and an idea of what level of equipment the person has measured on a scale.

ie, a suzuki with a tow rope is a 1 and a Safari with a PTO winch and 35s is a 10.

arent we better off to try and keep it simple?

Then if the person helping you breaks something trying to help you, it is up to you to replace or pay to have it replaced.

[mike]

I don't think we need to charge extra for recoverys. Chances are the person getting recovered will have had mechanical failure of somesorts which is going to cost them. The idea of this is to band togeather to help each other out and to keep recovery costs to a minimum. So I'm all for keeping it simple, just trying to restrict the access to the public somewhat.

So just the normal payed membership, either nomination or a minimum site usage to gain access to the info would be required.

Mike

[Leithfield]

- Don't really agree with the idea of ORE establishing a 'recovery fee' (just my 2c worth, but personally this doesn't sit well with the core ethos of ORE members supporting other ORE members)
- Do agree that checks and balances need to be implemented to:
1/ Restrict access
2/ Manage potential abuse
- Do agree that provision of recovery service* (*goodwill service & not guaranteed response/recovery) should be conditional upon acceptance of meeting all reasonable expenses incurred
- Do agree that this service is restricted to paid-ORE members (web ORE).

As an adjunct to Mike's nomination idea, perhaps potential abuse (joining just to effect cheap recovery) could also be managed by both a service stand-down period for new members and continuing requirement of active site contribution.

[Goose]

Cant agree more, the KISS method....
Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

how do I become a member? I dont mind paying a fee, the information alone from this site is worth it

Oh yeah, I'm not joining just to get recovered... I've yet to put myself in a situation requiring major recovery, that's H2o and Nibliks department...


In all honesty, if you tried to get the sort of info available here from a mechanic forget about it. I'd just like to do my bit for ore running costs

[mike]

- Don't really agree with the idea of ORE establishing a 'recovery fee' (just my 2c worth, but personally this doesn't sit well with the core ethos of ORE members supporting other ORE members)
- Do agree that checks and balances need to be implemented to:
1/ Restrict access
2/ Manage potential abuse
- Do agree that provision of recovery service* (*goodwill service & not guaranteed response/recovery) should be conditional upon acceptance of meeting all reasonable expenses incurred
- Do agree that this service is restricted to paid-ORE members (web ORE).

As an adjunct to Mike's nomination idea, perhaps potential abuse (joining just to effect cheap recovery) could also be managed by both a service stand-down period for new members and continuing requirement of active site contribution.

Perhaps a one month stand down period? this would be easy to impliment, no overheads as in nominating people, and maybe a minimum of 20 posts in the forum to gather a feel for the person? This would adhere to KISS by being all automated and if a problem arises access could be manually terminated with ease.

Mike

[Leithfield]

One month would represent a very generous stand-down period Mike; just a personal opinion, but was thinking more in the vicinity of 3-months.

That timeframe would better permit opportunity to contribute, interact/meet with other members, and potentially participate in off-road excursions.

[H2OLOVA]

Certainly agree with idea of standown and site contributions. The idea of a fee was a "suggestion" to prevent abuse of this service, but if we have other more simple options to curb this then i'm all for that.

After our trip on sunday, we damaged Nibliks snatch rope because vehicle had no rear recovery point (person has agreed to replace strap so all good there) How could we go about making sure that all vehicles have recognized recovery points and their own strap as a minimum requirement? Using underated points is potentially lethal as we all know and hooking up to inappropriate points could also damage the vehicle, i don't want to sound like a prick or anything, and i'm happy to help out, but if your going to go 4wding and get in a position to need help, i think the least you can do is to have your vehicle ready for a safe recovery.

[Aaron]

I agree, if your going to come out 4wding and expect other people to help you out, you should at least have tow hooks and a rope of some sort.

Maybe that should be a condition of coming out on trips organised through ORE.

[Leithfield]

How could we go about making sure that all vehicles have recognized recovery points and their own strap as a minimum requirement?

1/ Education - Trip leader to rate/describe difficulty of each proposed excurison and establish minimum safety specs.
2/ Minimum equipment requirement - Rated recovery hooks and straps become mandatory, and marshalled, for all ORE supported off-road excursions
3/ Scrutineering - Trip leader/Peer* scrutineering
(* i.e. Trip leader confirms minimum spec recovery gear on the vehicle immediately behind, that driver then confirms the next vehicle, and so forth ...).
4/ Prerequisite for recovery service.

[needswork]

Sounds like the way to go, But all you are doing is reinventing what 4WD Clubs do, so why not just join a club?
They have all that as part of their minimum standards.

[H2OLOVA]

, so why not just join a club?
They have all that as part of their minimum standards.

thats why many of us are here cause of the BS involved with some clubs.

[needswork]

Fair enough,
but think about it all you guys are doing here is creating your own version of BS?

[Leithfield]

... all you guys are doing here is creating your own version of BS?

If advocating safety through education, requiring minimum-level recovery equipment, and promoting individual responsibility through peer guided practice is construed as BS then so be it. Unfortunately, in many clubs the "BS" doesn't stop there .

[mike]

Fair enough,
but think about it all you guys are doing here is creating your own version of BS?

I disagree. The majority of this discussion has been benificial to me - the person making the changes necessary in keeping people of dishonest nature (scum) from using the information that is going to be made available to members of this community to help each other to curb the costs of misadventures when they happen and they always do....its the nature of our sport. The differenece between here and a club is a club takes months to talk about what we have in a couple of hours and our recovery efforts will be nation wide so when I'm up north around taupo with a group of three or two vehicles and something goes wrong then I can call in help from members from the taupo region as they can when they are down here. Maybe that level of communication exists between clubs, I wouldnt know I'm not a member of any as they have yet to offer more satisfaction than ORE provides for me

Mike

[Aaron]

The way things are these days if you want to be towed by someone else they must ensure that it is perfectly safe for them to do so.

There is a lot of force involved in a snatch recovery and if a shackle or rope breaks and injures someone the person who attaced it could probably be held responsible for those injuries.

Wouldnt you rather check that the tow hooks are safe than wear one in the back of your head?

There is a reason why clubs do these things.

Like Leithfield says with clubs the BS carrys on well after that point.

[H2OLOVA]

At the end of the day you can't play rugby without a ball and some boots (minimum requirement) i don't see how this is any different in our chosen sport. Given the potential injuries that could be sustained for the sake of two $15 tow hooks i don't think this is unreasonable to expect. Especially when its not only the guy without these items who is putting themselves at risk!
At the end of the day we spend $1000"s on our vehicle, tyres etc so whats another hundred to ensure you have safe front and rear recovery points and a decent strap?