Body lifts

[1bad4x]

Got try this Link


http://www.lvvta.org.nz/CertThresholdSc ... il04V3.pdf



We all say cirts SUC but when i think back to my 1979 323 with a stage 2 12a with 48mm IDA light flywheel etc etc good for well over 200kph....

At 100kph on the M/Way a quick rev'n'dump would she light up

But all this on standard 323 brakes & cut springs did a 1:12 round puke track but 1st time round took lots of difflock & drifting to get round the hairpin as the brakes slowed me to 150kph then cooked

Hmmmm Dont think that would get a cirt today

[DieselBoy]

In reflection of daily life, in how many instances at work for example are you absolved of personal responsibilty through H&S or Osh??

It seems we live in a world where personal responsibility/liability is rapidly being got rid of.

Except for road use.

If you get a WOF and the Wof man misses something on your vehicle and you crash and its found unsafe, your liable.

If you take a corner to fast and skid off the road, you liable for dangerous driving.

If your at work say on a mine sight and slide off the haul road and under a truck, its the contractor thats liable for not maintaining the road to the correct standard.

If your in the office and slip over and break your leg, its the companys fault for not idenifiying the hazard with the correct warning signs and excluding the area as hazardous.

Yet, you can get a WOF for your truck and think that its all fine and road worthy, and as far as you know, as your not a an expert and the WOF man is, your vehicle is in a fit and road worthy condition and totally legal.

So you crash and the crash is somehow atributed to the fact that your suspension was 2" higher. You have a fresh new WOF. If it was unsafe to the point that it was a potential cause of an accident, the surly the WOF man shouldn't have given it a WOF. So taking the above logic that is so prevelant in daily life these days, the WOF man is potentially liable for not identifiying the hazard and instructing the owner of the vehicle to get the modification assesed and supply the correct documantation from an authorised expert.

Now for the bit the really gets me..........................

Say the WOF man picked up on the 2" lift and sent the owner off to the cert man. The cert man checked that it was all good, ie. the factory mounts where used and the springs didn't dislocate and all that bollocks, filled in the form and swiped the guys eftpos card and took the $400.

The plate shows up and is riveted to the dash board.

Does that magic little plate now makes those 2" lifted springs all safe and sound??

Does having that plate magically lower the center of gravity and make the vehicle safer??

If the guy had have got his springs certed prior to the accident, would the accident not have occurred??

I think not.

So what the fuk is the point of the cert??

You may as well just ban all modifications for what its worth.

The responsibility should be with the WOF people to isolate unsafe modifications and require them to be rectified.

If some fuktard has cut his springs, or super glued a V8 into his Charade, then thats where a cert has its place.

Certs should be reserved for serious modifications such as engine transplants, chassis modifications(such as cutting and welding chassis, modifying suspension mounts etc etc. Thats fair enough.

BUT, if the grounds for requiring a cert on a 2" suspension lift, is to check that it is safe, or to check that a body lift is safe, for the reason that it is a saftey concern and could cause an accident, yet that risk magically dissapears once the plate has been mounted on the fire (as nothing is required to be changed on the vehicle) than what is the point of the cert??

The vehicle is still the same height after all

[doby]

Well said DB, i agree entierly.

[Dace]

In reflection of daily life, in how many instances at work for example are you absolved of personal responsibilty through H&S or Osh??

It seems we live in a world where personal responsibility/liability is rapidly being got rid of.

Except for road use.

If you get a WOF and the Wof man misses something on your vehicle and you crash and its found unsafe, your liable.

If you take a corner to fast and skid off the road, you liable for dangerous driving.

If your at work say on a mine sight and slide off the haul road and under a truck, its the contractor thats liable for not maintaining the road to the correct standard.

If your in the office and slip over and break your leg, its the companys fault for not idenifiying the hazard with the correct warning signs and excluding the area as hazardous.

Yet, you can get a WOF for your truck and think that its all fine and road worthy, and as far as you know, as your not a an expert and the WOF man is, your vehicle is in a fit and road worthy condition and totally legal.

So you crash and the crash is somehow atributed to the fact that your suspension was 2" higher. You have a fresh new WOF. If it was unsafe to the point that it was a potential cause of an accident, the surly the WOF man shouldn't have given it a WOF. So taking the above logic that is so prevelant in daily life these days, the WOF man is potentially liable for not identifiying the hazard and instructing the owner of the vehicle to get the modification assesed and supply the correct documantation from an authorised expert.

Now for the bit the really gets me..........................

Say the WOF man picked up on the 2" lift and sent the owner off to the cert man. The cert man checked that it was all good, ie. the factory mounts where used and the springs didn't dislocate and all that bollocks, filled in the form and swiped the guys eftpos card and took the $400.

The plate shows up and is riveted to the dash board.

Does that magic little plate now makes those 2" lifted springs all safe and sound??

Does having that plate magically lower the center of gravity and make the vehicle safer??

If the guy had have got his springs certed prior to the accident, would the accident not have occurred??

I think not.

So what the fuk is the point of the cert??

You may as well just ban all modifications for what its worth.

The responsibility should be with the WOF people to isolate unsafe modifications and require them to be rectified.

If some fuktard has cut his springs, or super glued a V8 into his Charade, then thats where a cert has its place.

Certs should be reserved for serious modifications such as engine transplants, chassis modifications(such as cutting and welding chassis, modifying suspension mounts etc etc. Thats fair enough.

BUT, if the grounds for requiring a cert on a 2" suspension lift, is to check that it is safe, or to check that a body lift is safe, for the reason that it is a saftey concern and could cause an accident, yet that risk magically dissapears once the plate has been mounted on the fire (as nothing is required to be changed on the vehicle) than what is the point of the cert??

The vehicle is still the same height after all

Now this is not my view but just continuing the logic a beaurecrat would apply to the above

the 2 inch lift is dangerous at the WOF check and as pointed out, is not made safer by the cert plate. then logic leads to the dangerious modification should not be allowed on the road and is there for made illegal across the board.

[xj]

And to continue from the above posts, i dunno about others but on my windscreen, inline with my forehead, theres a sticker attached. Sticker reads : "Caution, this vehicle had reduced stability due to suspension modifications"
The sticker was attached as part of LVV certification.

Following the logic shown, if i roll the thing, im not liable, because a govt approved agency has identified that its more likely to roll, AND STILL DEEMED IT LEGAL.

AND..... a wof agent has inspected the wagon, read the cert plate and the sticker, and has also deemed that its ok.

So, youd think that if i roll, bowl and arsehole it, that the insurance company would have no probs... after all its been to two EXPERTS and theyve both identified an potential risk, but said that its still ok.
Which, in itself, contravenes the Health and Safety Employment act. To paraphrase, if you identify a problem relating to safety, simply notifying someone else is not good enough, YOU as the notifier/identifier HAVE to ensure that whatever the hazard is is not left in an unsafe manner. "but boss, theres water on the floor, there ive done my bit off to the loo" doesnt cut it. I would not have thought that saying "hey bud, your wagons likely to roll... there ive done my bit...." would suffice either.

#### it, i'm off to the Ureweras, can do what i want there....

[Dace]

And to continue from the above posts, i dunno about others but on my windscreen, inline with my forehead, theres a sticker attached. Sticker reads : "Caution, this vehicle had reduced stability due to suspension modifications"
The sticker was attached as part of LVV certification.

Following the logic shown, if i roll the thing, im not liable, because a govt approved agency has identified that its more likely to roll, AND STILL DEEMED IT LEGAL.

AND..... a wof agent has inspected the wagon, read the cert plate and the sticker, and has also deemed that its ok.

So, youd think that if i roll, bowl and arsehole it, that the insurance company would have no probs... after all its been to two EXPERTS and theyve both identified an potential risk, but said that its still ok.
Which, in itself, contravenes the Health and Safety Employment act. To paraphrase, if you identify a problem relating to safety, simply notifying someone else is not good enough, YOU as the notifier/identifier HAVE to ensure that whatever the hazard is is not left in an unsafe manner. "but boss, theres water on the floor, there ive done my bit off to the loo" doesnt cut it. I would not have thought that saying "hey bud, your wagons likely to roll... there ive done my bit...." would suffice either.

#### it, i'm off to the Ureweras, can do what i want there....

I prefer that conclusion to my example

[PeterVahry]

Following an approach from the NZFWDA there has been a rethink by LTNZ. There is no change in policy and they concede that the notice was poorly worded.

The letter from LTNZ can be found at http://www.nzfwda.org.nz

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[coxsy]

by way of interest who do we see to get a cert , anyone know of someone in auckland to see about this

[PeterVahry]

To find a certifier you can check http://www.lvvta.org.nz
Mark Stokes has a good reputation with the winch challenge competitors

[coxsy]

well looked again found numbers required not a hoop jumping person

[TJ]

Thanks Peter for the update.

[Petemcc]

Like Steve said they need a cheaper option so that if you chage something small that you don't need to get the whole truck recerted.

Also i don't see why you would need a cert to go from 33's to 35's and for that matter if you do get a cert you are only allowed to run one size even though both sizes could be certified.

Pete

[Ryan]

I was led to believe you could get cert for two differrnt size tyres?

[wjw]

I was led to believe you could get cert for two differrnt size tyres?

I have heard of one guy who got one as he had a switch for his electronic speedo that kept it accurate when changing sizes.

[Moriarty]

Where the hell is this going to end?

Body lifts, ok, (NO! I am saying this for the arguament) now, What next? What if some prat takes it into his/her head to ban number plate surrounds, because they are NOT factory fited. Air horns? STICKERS cos they will distract other drivers?
Those great big intercooler the Nissin boys like? How about aftermarket indicators and riding lights for your veteran car, THEY are definitly not standard.
Ok, a silly example, but our lawmakers and administrators ARE silly at times, that Bradford woman for example)


I can feel an editorial coming on.........

somebody write to me!!!! Cowards.........

[PeterVahry]

Bob, that's why we have the LVVTA. It is the watchdog and gatekeeper for vehicle enthusiasts. Ok, LVVTA create rules too but they are created through a consultation process with the vehicle group reps. Check http://www.lvvta.org.nz for the groups involved. Have you seen a copy of the Hobbycar Technical Manual? It took four years to create with 3 hour meetings every month (and often twice a month). Marketed by NZ Hot Rod it was actually a cooperative exercise between a range of groups, including the NZFWDA. If you want to build or rebuild a vehicle you should have a copy as it's what the certifiers work from too and is the basis of the various Standards.

[Mark]

Ok... so just to confirm:

Land Transport NZ sent out a WoF News article to all WoF agents stating the following about "Raised suspension":

You may have noticed a growing trend to raise vehicles. This is sometimes done by fitting a suspension or body lift kit.

These types of modifications must be LVV certified.

These modifications may affect the stability of a vehicle by changing the centre of gravity, or they may impact on the steering system.
Steering and suspension geometry can also be adversely affected if a vehicle is raised significantly.

Then, after Peter Vahry of NZFWDA queried the matter with them over whether this was in fact a rule change or not they replied with a letter retracting that statement saying:

After some discussion with the writer of the article the correct wording in the second paragraph should have read, "These types of modifications may require LVV certification and reference should be made to section 9-1 of the VIRM for guidance"

Upon reviewing section 9-1 of the Vehicle inspection requirements manual - In-service certification the general vehicle page (first part of it) says:

Modifications
6. A modification that affects the steering system
must be inspected and certified by an LVV specialist
certifier, unless the vehicle:
a) is excluded from the requirement for LVV
specialist certification (Table 9-1-1), and
b) has been inspected in accordance with the
requirements in this manual, including those for
equipment, condition and performance

Simple suspension modifications where the following is met are therefore OK as they are listed in Table 9-1-1 (assuming general condition and performance checks pass):

Springs and shock absorbers
• the springs or shock absorbers are direct replacements, and
• replacement springs fit and maintain contact with un-modified OE seats throughout full
suspension travel, and
• replacement springs are self-retaining in their seats at full extension, without the use of
non-standard devices such as wire-ties, straps, or external spring locators, and
• replacement springs have not been heated or cut, and
• springs and spring seats are not height adjustable (unless OE), and
• replacement shock absorbers fit un-modified OE mountings, and
suspension maintains sufficient travel for safe operation when fully laden, and
• suspension components maintain sufficient clearance from unmodified bumpstops when
fully laden, and
• a minimum of 100 mm ground clearance exists below any part of the vehicle structure, or any
steering, braking, or suspension component1, and
• the normal relationship between front and rear suspension height is not unduly affected.

But there is no mention in Table 9-1-1 Modifications that do not require LVV certification about anything related to body lifts. So to me that means that all body lifts, no matter how big, will require LVV certification because they can affect the steering system, ie

A modification that affects the steering system must be inspected and certified by an LVV specialist certifier

Would everyone agree on this?

[DieselBoy]

No, because a body lift does not affect the steering system.

You may need to release the slip joint on the steering column and retighten, but it does not effect the steering system by way of strength, handling characteristics or geometry.

By the definition of "modification", the releasing and retightening of the slip joint is not a modification.

The process of installing the lift "can" affect the steering system, ie, you can have to release the slip joint, and retighten it, but that is only during the instalation of the bodylift. Once the installation has been completed, the actual bodylift does not effect the steering in any way.

[doddzee]

No, because a body lift does not affect the steering system.

You may need to release the slip joint on the steering column and retighten, but it does not effect the steering system by way of strength, handling characteristics or geometry.

By the definition of "modification", the releasing and retightening of the slip joint is not a modification.

The process of installing the lift "can" affect the steering system, ie, you release the slip joint, but that is only during the instalation of the bodylift. Once the installation has been completed, the actual bodylift does not effect the steering in any way.

Yes but when you retighten it you have less spline in the slip joint. Are the lvvta to assume that everyone who performs a body lift is aware that they have left enough of the spline in there. In my eyes that does modify the steering as there is less of the spline in there than before. Id like to know that a vehicle with a 3-4" body lift has not had the steering overlooked.

[Dace]

No, because a body lift does not affect the steering system.

You may need to release the slip joint on the steering column and retighten, but it does not effect the steering system by way of strength, handling characteristics or geometry.

By the definition of "modification", the releasing and retightening of the slip joint is not a modification.

The process of installing the lift "can" affect the steering system, ie, you release the slip joint, but that is only during the instalation of the bodylift. Once the installation has been completed, the actual bodylift does not effect the steering in any way.

Yes but when you retighten it you have less spline in the slip joint. Are the lvvta to assume that everyone who performs a body lift is aware that they have left enough of the spline in there. In my eyes that does modify the steering as there is less of the spline in there than before. Id like to know that a vehicle with a 3-4" body lift has not had the steering overlooked.

I my self would be concerned about the "less spline" sitiation , considering the heavy hits the steering takes 4wheelin

[PigFmr]

i know when i done a 50mm body lift my steering slip joint moved maybe 2mm bugger all and still have loads left to go on spline, but thats on a safari other 4wds may be different??,also have 50mm spring lift aswell cant really see wot all the fuss is about its not like my tractor(safari) travels at high speed,and i replaced the little 10mm body bolts with 12mm bolts which are stronger,and i cant see any where in the WOF book that says you cant put a spacer in between your chassy and body,so does this mean if you tow a large trailer and you want to put uprated spings in you will need a cert and the same if you have coil spacers in the rear

[DieselBoy]

Another spanner that Dodgy has throw in, is that quite often with the 3-4" B/L's, a spacer is used on the steering colomn, where the rag joint goes on some modles, to lengthen the steering column. The same as/similar to a drive shaft spacer.

Depending on your point of view, this is not modifiying any of the individual steering components, just adding a further component to the steering system, where as on the other hand, by adding that component, you have modified the whole steering system.

BUT, would you pay $400 to get a cert, just to say that your little 5mm aluminium spacer is ok??

Or worse, pay $400 for someone to say that you have moved your slip joint by 2mm and it is ok.

When a simple visual would tell you if its safe or not.

[doddzee]

I like throwing spanners around

I see where you are coming from DB and i agree personally i wouldnt want to pay $400 to cert a body lift (and i probly wouldnt either) but i can see why it should be a certed item. You cant have back yard mechanics driving around who want a cheap lift by chucking 4" blocks in there and not knowing what other problems that may occur.

[PeterVahry]

There is certainly a possibility that the steering could be affected in some vehicles with a body lift. There are other things too that can occur as a consequence of any changes to bits on vehicles because they are all a bit different. Frankly if there is a risk that the steering spline is compromised, I'd hope that anyone would sort that out...without welding a steering component! If there is doubt in anyone's mind about the validity of the changes they've made to their vehicle and if it would affect their insurance then pay for a certifier to check that vehicle.

Pgfmr notes that he's put spacers in to achieve a lift and has increased the bolt size as a precaution. One thing that has been identified with such lifts, is the additional leverage on the body sections, with it not uncommon for the fastening to rip the body section. A reinforcing plate to spread the stress is suggested when doing a body lift...especially with Nissans

[PigFmr]

when i say spacers i mean 50mm blocks,most 4wd drivers that do mods to there trucks make things stronger well i hope they do, i know that i do !, going back to handling of the truck i have found that my safari handles better with the mods that i have done better springs,good shocks,bushes etc... its firmer on cornering and better road manners than it was when i first had it in its standard form,its not like i have cut my chassy moved my rear diff forward and bob tailed the truck,moved shocks mounts and so on, then this is when a LVC is needed in my view just my 2c worth

vince

[DieselBoy]

when i say spacers i mean 50mm blocks,most 4wd drivers that do mods to there trucks make things stronger well i hope they do, i know that i do !,...........................

vince

Yeah, most do, but my personal objection is the cost associated with having an expert cast his expert eye over the modifications and give his expert opinion that they are ok and give you a little tin plate to say so.

If it was $100, plus a $20 fee for adding mods to the list, no one would be complaining

for example, this 50mm b/l, we all know that it moves the slip joint and reduces the contact area by 2mm on a safari and its pefectly safe, but when you have to hand over $400 to get an expert to say so and provide a plate as proof, its very un-palatable.

In the same breath, how can you put a price on your own safety, your families safety and that of other road users?????

I know i couldn't live with my self if my 50mm sus lift springs caused injury or death to another person.