Winch Challenge Classes

[darinz]

I'm not trying to go over everything again as it has been done to death but I do have a suggestion and would like some feedback prior to setting the class rules for the Northland Challenge later this year.
I've been reading the CCDA clas rules and they split the classes with among other tyre size. They have a 35.5x13.5 class and a 37.5x13.5 class. Basically they use to have a 36.5 rules like us but the advent of tyre sponsorship and the number of tyres designed for the Hummer have ment the size is now 37.5. The rule was originally increase to 36.5 from 36 to cater for Simex so the precedent has been set.
What I can see is more alignment wit the Oz class rules as why reinvent the wheel.
So we could have the Clubmans class with a 35.5 rule which allows all the 35" tyres and then the Challenge class with 37.5 to allow all the 37's. The current 36.5 rule allows several 37" tyres but not all.

I would like to allow wire rope for the Clubmans class but the rules on rope damage will be very very tight so basically you'd need to start with a new rope to comply.

I think a rollbar is required and it would be based around the old 4x4ch rollbar rule so it pretty much allows anything as long as it is mounted properly.

The other thng that I'm thinking about is having standard winchs only for the Clubmans. This would mean the winchs can not have performance mods, so hydraulic would be to manufacturers specs. PTO as per factory and electric would not allow motor upgrades, free spools (apart from factory), twin motors etc. You would be able to fit breathers, oil filling etc to aid in maintenance and weather proofing but no strengthening or performance upgrades.

I also think the WOF rule should be current WOF only.

What do people think, and any further suggestions. Obviously increasing the tyre rule can't happen now but the 35.5 rule is intended.

PS Northalnd Challenge under planning for about the last weekend in August ie 7 weeks after Vegas and 7 weeks before Labour weekend. Challenge and Clubmans classes and there will be some land used that we haven't been on before.

[monstr]

Some good idea"s there Darin I think the clubman class should also have a full factory body i:e trucks like yours and mine that have been traybacked or turned into a ute would have to be challenge class it should also have factory type suspension (no coilovers) or twin shocks..Steve

[swampa]

to stay in clubmans class what would be the extent of modifications to stay in this class, in my hilux we have a supercharged lexus, factory himount and custom coil conversion, could i stay in clubmans class??
karam

[tgaguy1]

it should also have factory type suspension (no coilovers) or twin shocks..Steve

Good idea Steve. That should include any suspension items or suspension configurations that are not factory fitted i.e nitrogen bump stops, air bags, drop shackles.

Darin, would the 35.5" tyre rule exclude the 35x12.5x15 Simex (Measures at 35.9")


Jason.

[swampa]

what about hilux body on prado chassis?? what class would that come into as this is a popular conversion, could these vehicles stay in clubmans class??
karam

[muddy]

Personally I'd hate to see the Clubman rules get too far from what a "good" Club truck actually is. And around here, that is 33in radial tyres - so I'd vote to restrict them further to radials only - under 33in (measured)...

And for the Challenge (Big Boys) Class I also think 36.5in is far enough to stretch a limit you said yourself was aimed at allowing Simex tyres marketed as 35's. Whatever size you choose, there will be some tyres which are "just" too big. Alternatively, do away with the guage and specify the max sidewall sizing you will permit - 35x13.5x15 or 265/85R16 etc

For our "Top of the South Challenge" we use a private property which is a working farm, and is used quite a lot for our Club trips. We find that the 36.5in rule causes quite enough track damage, and generates a lot of repair work. I don't think our club or the landowner would allow the size limits to grow as you have suggested.

And for what it's worth, we will open an "Outlaw" Class for the Winch Challenge over Queens Birthday weekend if there's enough interest. WOF & cert not required, rules still being worked through, but will be aimed at allowing trials trucks with winches. Tyre size limit of 36.5in WILL still apply...

[tgaguy1]

Personally I'd hate to see the Clubman rules get too far from what a "good" Club truck actually is. And around here, that is 33in radial tyres - so I'd vote to restrict them further to radials only - under 33in (measured)...

most club trucks up here run 35" and the majority of those are on an extreme mud type tyre.

[Dak]

The one thing that I don't like, or, well shall we say I do like it but it will put a lot of people off is the roll cage one, don't get me wrong I think a cage is a good idea BUT, it adds to it a lot, the cost, getting it certed etc, where I live it would be a major to get it done. I think clubmans class should be able to be done in a truck that doesn't need to be certed. And the tyre one, should be restricted to 33.5 inches, would need to be 33.5 as 32 inch Simexes, which a lot of people use actually measure 33.3. Also, no body lift allowed, suspension only to a max of four inches. Original as it left the factory chassis and body, with allowances for guard cutting etc, but no different bodies on different chassis etc. Original motor with turbo or super charging allowed. All this applies to a Clubman class of course.

[muddy]

Maybe the clubman class needs to be clearly separate from the "Big Boys" or "Challenge" Class. Leave it entirely up to the organisers to specify what equipment & rules they consider necessary for the local conditions and type of tracks they are able to set up. Just have a general goal of making it suitable for "Club" trucks. It would mean there can't be a Clubman series, since there would be no consistent set of rules. But would that matter? Serious competitors who want to compete in a series would have to meet the "Challenge Class" rules. That may be a good thing - keep the Club Class as an entry-level event pitched at local trucks, and let the more heavily modified trucks with the budget to travel around the country meet a standard set of "Series" rules.

Don't take this rant as any sort of firm proposal or local policy - I'm just floating an idea...

[GQTROL]

Darin (and other organisers),
What are you trying to achieve by having a Clubman's Class? Do you just want anyone to be able to turn up with any truck and go for a skid?

I always thought the idea of Clubman's Class was to introduce new blood to the sport? From reading the comments on here, it seems there are a few guys with modified trucks but don't have any winch challenge experience. Their truck modifications would exclude them from entering a "beginer's class", but because of their lack of experience it wouldn't be ideal that they start against the big boys.

Vic Winch in Aussie is specifically setup for competitors with little or no experience. Allowable truck mods are much the same as any other event, but they only require 4-point cage instead of a 6-point. But you can only enter if you haven't finished in the top 5 in any previous event (or something like that).

So why not set up Clubman's Class with the same allowable truck mods, but entry is dependant on level of experience. i.e. no previous winch challenge experience at the start of the series. That way, people in Clubmans can "run what they brung" for their first series, but the following year they're against the big boys and have to comply with the appropriate regs.

However, if you're wanting a stand-alone class where you don't need to spend alot of money, then look at Production Class developed by Darin Green (Krimnl) and recently adopted by CCDA in Aussie. Standard trucks, susp lift restricted, std winches, no cab chops, no wheel-base mods etc.

[darinz]

I think that we need to cater for the club truck guys though so keeping a level playing field and a production type class would be the goal.
So my goal is to have a cheap entry level class that allows guys with a good club truck to compete. Roll bars will be compulsory in any event of this type I organise. Non rollbar events are the domain of individual clubs and I do those for my own club but not for something where I don't know the people involved. It is all about risk.
I like the suspension idea and something I wanted include so at pesent I think it will be something like this.

Standard body and chassis from same make. You can replace chassis but from same model only.
Axles can be moved no more than 50mm from factory position and that is to allow for changes in geometry that lift causes.
Standard suspension configuration. ie type and location of shocks, spring arms etc.
Suspension lifts restricted to off the shelf items.
Motors must be from same model vehicle so deisel to petrol allowed.
Deisels allowed of the shelf turbo kits. Petrols allowed injection etc but no forced induction.
Winches may have breather and filler adaptions but no performance upgrades. (replacement motors to be discussed further)
Tyres to be 35.5x13.5 maximum, all other specs as per rules. (as has been said, almost every good club truck no runs 35's up here)
All other rules the same ie body lifts, guard cutting, safety barriers etc

Anything else?
I thinkk the above rules would allow most daily driven club trucks to compete with the only tough bit being the rollbar. Under these rules this could be removeable so wouldn't need to be certed. This is a relatively cheap and easy thing to achieve. Basically we are talking about a very strong crago barrier with back stays.

I think we need to concentrate on making it a competitive but more along the lines of the event I ran last year, so it was tough but fun and everyone helped the new guys out. I think if guys go and spend money modifying their trucks before racing then they can just play with the big boys and learn the hard way.

What I intend to do is try and get a consensus view of a class and then put it foward as a new class at the 4x4Ch AGM so that guys know from comp to comp that the club class rules will be basically the same. Again it is about making it easier for both organisers and competitors.

[85BJ73]

Never done a winch challenge type event, as my truck is a club truck, but the outline that DAK made would appeal to me , but I would only be doing it for fun, as I believe my 'ol 'cruser would get thrashed by nearly everything else..... but DAK's idea would appeal to me.

[GQTROL]

Darin,
You've just described Krimnl's Production Class as adopted by CCDA and currently operating in AU.

[darinz]

Exactly, I think it is a good idea and I have said that I think the Oz classes are pretty good. I do think we need something that enables organisers and competitors to just do the sport rather than make it up as they go along.
If this isn't the right option then that is fine but lets sort something out so we know where we stand. If we don't, no one else is going to!

[Dak]

OK, who's gonna build me a rollcage then??

[haynzy]

every thing looks good to me except the engine rule. My truck started its life as a 2.4 diesel and I have since done an engine swap but what hilux motor is actually worth swapping to that will make any real difference,

[jeremy]

Darin (and other organisers),
What are you trying to achieve by having a Clubman's Class? Do you just want anyone to be able to turn up with any truck and go for a skid?

I always thought the idea of Clubman's Class was to introduce new blood to the sport? From reading the comments on here, it seems there are a few guys with modified trucks but don't have any winch challenge experience. Their truck modifications would exclude them from entering a "beginer's class", but because of their lack of experience it wouldn't be ideal that they start against the big boys.

I agree Mitch. If the aim is to bring new blood into the sport, they shouldn't be restricted as to what vehicle they can run, weather they have a stocker with mud tyres and a winch, or a full out tough truck. What should be provided is a means for any non competitor to have a go and see if it's for them, regardless of the extent of mods they have done to their truck.

When winch challenge was a still a new thing in NZ, the Auckland 4wd club used to organise practice winch challenge days which were run with the main aim of fine tuning the competition rules and giving the marshals some practise. But they were a great chance for newbie's to have a go in a controlled environment, and many of the competitors of these events soon had their trucks up to challenge spec and competing in what was then just a one big event per year. Joe and Andre, Dave Broome and Paul, Tony and Mike, Royce, Arajan and Matt, Graham Pike, Peter Stopforth, us ...just to name a few of the teams who used these practice days to test the waters before jumping in the deep end.

It's this kinda format which I think is the best way to give newbies a chance to test the water. Something low key and relaxed with stages that are enjoyable, challenging but not to extreme for the lesser equipped.

[TJ]

I agree with Jeremy, whats the objective of this new class? If it is to attract new blood, then make it appealing to them by providing a supportive and fun environment, not restrict and strangle them to death with rule about whether you can fart inside your cab (or outside). Please, lets all be objective and keep it simple.

I personally have no competition experience, but that does not mean I might not be interested in competing in future. My set-up currently is for occassional offroad use. However, as I am breaking (rather upgrading) things as I am moving along, I am sure time will come soon when it becomes a pure toy.

I fully support the idea of introducing a new club class, get the new blood (see I am not calling it young blood because ... not all of us are young anymore) to come and take the sport to a bigger market.

[Dak]

But if you do it that way you fall into the trap of a LOT of other motorsports, the guy with the most money is gonna win, a guy with little experience but snot loads of money to build a truck will more than likely beat the guy with little money and a bit of experience. It HAS to be regulated.

[TJ]

But if you do it that way you fall into the trap of a LOT of other motorsports, the guy with the most money is gonna win, a guy with little experience but snot loads of money to build a truck will more than likely beat the guy with little money and a bit of experience. It HAS to be regulated.

I would disagree, just see what happened at the competition recently. Most powerful (and probably expensive) toys were as much broken as some of the lesser mortals. Its as much about picking a line and driver technique as the technology under the hood or belly.

Regulations are good, but in moderation and geared more towards safety of the participants (driver, coes, marshalls, etc). The problem with more regulations is the policing aspect of it. Then you fall into the trap of people accusing and protesting against technical breaches all the time.

All I am after is finding a happy middle that keeps the sport fun and attractive to new blood (to gain the necessary experience and fine tuning their toys/skills).

[jeremy]

The way I see it, Winch Challenge is very much a brains over budget competition. I've yet to see any team do well solely because of their budget. The winning teams get there because they consistently place good times and minimise their mistakes, not because they have the most expensive suspension or a super high tech winch. Sure it all helps at times, but it's only a small part of the equation. Experience counts.

I think the 'practice day' type competition format that we've run in the past is a great way to introduce people to winch challenge because it is very light hearted and not so much about the competition, or your truck (budget), but more so about having a go and deciding whether you want to compete at a competitive level, or not.

There has been plenty of talk about various types of classes in winch challenge in the past, and it seems that in the end we have always come to the same realisation - it's not your car that makes you competitive or not, it's the whole team (the 3 of you - driver, co-driver, car) and how you work together (coming back to that brains over budget thing again).

[darinz]

But you still have to do something. We can keep going around and around in circles like is currently happening. Things get talked about but then someone who has been involved for a long time will say "that's not how we used to do it" and nothing happens. The sport needs to be a reflection of the poepl actually doing the sport and as such we need to encourage others to make the step. Classes are needed, we would be the only motorsport anywhere that doesn't have them. Letting each organiser make up their owns is a step back to the bad old days.
To make it appealing there needs to be vehicle restrictions as this also keeps the cost down. Sure if someone wants to win the Production class then they can spend $200,000 and build something pretty good but it will still have the same basic setup as any other truck in the class. A really good production class type truck could be built for about $10k to $15k, where as a challenge class truck can have that much spent on the winch, but in reality it will cost somewhere around $30k as a starting point. I don't think anyone competing now is going to try and tell you they've spent less than $20 and most will be in the $30k to $50k range. That is where my truck is and that has been spent over 4 years with more being spent in the past 18 months than in the first part. When it was at production class spec it would have had about $10k spent on it and it cost $11k, but you can buy a SWB Nissan for $5k so my $15k ready to race estimate comes in and that included the turbo.

With what has been discussed over the past 12 months and how I see the sport going, I'm going ti push on with a Club Class based around a production class like the CCDA class. If people don't like this then I suggest they either work with me to make something more suitable or they just shut up and live with it. Ultimately it will be put to a vote at the AGM and will either become a class or not depending upon what the members of 4x4Challenges want. I'm going to do something as I'm sick and tired of all the talk and nothing being done.

[Madaz]

How many trucks competed in the clubmans class at the Norwest comp?

[jeremy]

How many trucks competed in the clubmans class at the Norwest comp?

Zero

[TJ]

Classes are needed, we would be the only motorsport anywhere that doesn't have them. Letting each organiser make up their owns is a step back to the bad old days.

I agree, classification system is needed but all I am saying is the system has to be kept simple with least possible "rules" so that more and more people can compete in amateur classes before progressing onto more "competitive" classes.

If people don't like this then I suggest they either work with me to make something more suitable or they just shut up and live with it. Ultimately it will be put to a vote at the AGM and will either become a class or not depending upon what the members of 4x4Challenges want. I'm going to do something as I'm sick and tired of all the talk and nothing being done.

There lies your problem, who are current members of the 4x4Challenges? Majority (if not all) are competitors of winch competitions. Where is representation from the masses? I, for one, am more than happy to have an honest and objective discussion on the topic with you or anybody else. Lets do it for the betterment of the sport, not personal agendas. I agree something has to be done.

[meatc]

I agree with Darin. There needs to be another class.

The lack of clubman trucks at NorWest doesn't suprise me. The lack of consistensy in rules for this class will put people off. Simple fact is you will never please all the people all the time. If you don't like what is being proposed put something together yourself for comparison.

Having been involved in the top level of sport the classes that survive are the regular, consistantly ruled (read national) classes. They need to change with the times (the tyre size thing for example) but the basics must remain.

More classes will result in more compeditors ( that pleasing more of the people more of the time thing) Look at the trials classes 1/2 doz classes 60 plus trucks at events. Not saying winch challenges need to go that far but moving forward is good.

Personally I would support a outlaw class but thats because thats what I'm building as a toy. In reality when family comitments allow me time and finance to compete I will look at the classes avalible and build to suit where I want to be.

my 1.8c (bloody tax)

[Madaz]

Apart from aligning with the australian rules, why are you so persistant about changing the tyre size rule to 37"?
Just curious?

Cheers

[swampa]

just curious also, how many aussie trucks came over last year for any of the events?

[Ralfie]

just curious also, how many aussie trucks came over last year for any of the events?

Again........Zero.

[shortylux]

Having been in aussie for just a short period, what i saw, and what the new ccda club class will achieve, is basically a "short wheel base nissan" class. Basically no standard engined hilux is worth trying with, the coil bundera/prado suffers the same fate and not to many production class guys are going to afford an 80 series to compete with. I guess a standard 40 stands a chance.

So what im saying is, like others have said, keep clubmans rules as loose as possible. but you can only do one season in clubmans (or three events or what ever). that way the biggest number of potential new competitors are attracted. sure the guy with the $200,000 truck stands a good bloody chance of winning, but its club mans class for crying out loud. clubman are there for the experience and fun, the trophy is a bonus.

while im here. another aspect that is PARAMOUNT to the growth of our sport is... spectators MUST be allowed at every event. i know this can be a prick, but who will sponsor an unwatched sport.

An i reckon that little blurb was worth more than 2 cents.

Arron.