Walking Access Bill action needed

Discussions concerning land access, DOC legislation and 4wd regulations
PeterVahry
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Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

Walking Access Bill

This Bill has had a first hearing in Parliament as presented by the Hon Damien O'Connor.

It is now at the submissions stage until 21 May 2008. :!:

For four wheeling it is potentially absolutely disastrous :evil: and as you will see from the comments below from Bryce Johnson of NZ Fish and Game Council, that it dismays them too.
The 4x4 community must act swiftly and in big numbers, to put forward objections to the intended Bill and to contact your MP’s and tell them it’s not wanted! A current list of all MP contact details is available from http://www.nzfwda.org.nz under the Walking Access heading in "What's Hot" on the home page

Bryce's comments...

I am currently filing an OIA request for any reports, Cabinet decisions etc, that relate to the decision to include the section in the Bill enabling walkways to be created over public land. I suspect there isn’t much I will get back which will indicate it is more a political move than one built on reasonable cause.

Personally I think it is a sinister (and naive) attempt to get rid on unformed legal roads (ULRs) in favour of the adjoining owner. So we all need to dump on this provision in the Bill big-time – especially any of the organisations and individuals who have an interest in recreational access with guns, dogs and vehicles (bike and motorized). The agricultural and local government sectors would love to get rid of ULRs.

We all need to make sure the hard won key points of ‘high principle’, from an angler / hunter point of view, that I got into chapter 6 of “Acland 2” (the panel I was on) are not fudged aside in the Bill and during the upcoming parliamentary debates and select committee process.

Already the pro-farmer attitude is emerging in the Explanatory Note to the Bill where it is stated on page 2 that…. “The Bill does not interfere with private property rights”…. yet the Bill currently seems silent on the explicitly recorded points in chapter 6 of the Acland 2 report on pages 16 and 17 that….”the public has rights to public resources”, and a bit further on….“Wildlife, freshwater fisheries and natural water are natural resources and do not usually attach to the land title” (and hence are deemed to be public resources forming part of the public estate) – where the reference to ‘do not usually’ was only inserted because of the uncertain legal possibility around ‘water ownership’ in relation to mining rights in places like Central Otago. So the proposition was generally accepted in Acland 2 that land ownership does not extend to the ‘wildlife, freshwater fisheries and natural water’ associated with the land upon which it exists – however it does not seem to have come through in the Bill – I wonder why?

What this all means is that the current Bill therefore effectively enshrines “exclusive capture”, where a land occupier can effectively grant themselves exclusive ownership of a public natural resource, such as wildlife, or freshwater fisheries, or natural water in situ, simply by (selectively) denying public access, for which they can then probably charge an access fee (which amounts to the sale of fishing or hunting rights in respect of those particular sports fish and game bird species managed by Fish and Game Councils). This needs to be strongly exposed by all of us in the up-coming parliamentary and select committee process.

One point in our possible favour however is that the Purpose statement of the actual Bill, at clause 3(a), states that….”The purpose of this Act is – (a) to provide the New Zealand public with safe, unimpeded walking access to the outdoors (such as around the coast and lakes, along rivers, and to public resources) so that the public can enjoy the outdoors….etc”. (my emphasis). However while “public resources” are not currently legally defined in section 4 of the Bill, we should be able to make a strong case for them to be, along the lines of the interpretation taken in Acland 2, noted above – ie. that ‘public resources’ means ‘wildlife, freshwater fisheries and natural water’. To this the marine recreational fishing NGOs need to add ‘marine recreational fisheries’ and big game NGOs need to add ‘deer, chamois, tahr and pigs’, and all the hunting NGOs (including Fish & Game) need to add ‘small game’ (such as hares, rabbits and possibly possums) – given that all three are what most hunters cut their teeth on en-route to becoming life-long recreational hunters.

We all therefore need to read this Bill very carefully, and contrast it against the Acland 2 report, including my ‘Alternative View’ minority report at chapter 21.

It will become an extremely important piece of legislation for the future of outdoor recreation in NZ, as it cuts to the fundamental heart of what the early English and European settlers sought to establish in NZ regarding the public ownership of and accessibility to natural resources.

Bryce

The Bill can be found at:

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/gov ... 44016.html
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lincooln
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by lincooln »

This is my submission to my local MP.

any thoughts on how i did would be helpful

Cheers

Lincoln Prouting

"Hi Jonathan

My is Lincoln Prouting. I am 17 years of age.

I am writing concerning the Walking Access Bill. I Belong to a 4WD club; NorWest OHV Club, I am just putting my view across.
This point of view is: I do not agree with this bill what so ever, and was hoping you could make my voice heard in parliment.

I hold this point of view as us Four Wheel Driver's love to use these Legal Unformed Roads as part of our outdoor recreation. We do advise the adjoining road owners when we are going to have a trip on them. We use them responsibly, do maintainence on them to keep them in resonable order.

Other people also do use these roads. Hunters who use them to get access to hunting sights, they also quite often use dogs for hunting purposes but if its Walking Access Only then dogs also cant be on the walk ways.

Fishers use them to gain access to rivers. Some rivers may be a few Km's away, so walking access would be hard for he elderly, retired or any one who has to carry a chilly bin, rod, bait, spare clothes etc. This makes it very impractical for them.

Horse Riders also use them for their recreation. They use them as exploring routes, to see the views NZ has to offer and to enjoy something that every body has an active interest in. THis includes all groups. 4WDer's, Horse Riders, Hunters, Motor Cyclists.

We all have the same reason for being out there. WE WANT TO ENJOY THE GREAT OUT DOORS NEW ZEALAND HAS TO OFFER. The government wants people to be outside doing things, yet all they seem to want to do is take away our access to the out doors and limit what we can do out side. We, as New Zealander's, have this great country to explore and enjoy, yet it is all being taken away from under us, and most people won't even realise its happening. Its a very sad story, and one that can be avoided.

Please put my view across to the necessary people.

Cheers

Lincoln Prouting"
PeterVahry
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

An appraisal by Bruce Mason, a strong advocate for access rights but not always a 4x4 advocate. He is however very highly respected for his clarity of thought and knowledge....

WALKING ACCESS REPRESSION
INTRODUCTION
As I sit at home on Anzac Day viewing the provisions of the recently introduced Walking Access Bill, an inescapable reality emerges - this Bill is a blatant assault on our fundamental rights, dressed up as a public good.

While our politicians are commemorating those who gave their lives for freedom and liberty, these same politicians are now not only betraying the supreme sacrifices of those they claim to honour but also present and future generations.
According to the Walking Access Consultation Panel (2007) there are 56,900 kilometers of unformed road in New Zealand - the equivalent of four times the distance by road from Peking to Paris. This is an immense strategic asset, much of which is suitable for recreational use.

"The unformed roading network is one of the greatest recreational assets of the nation, for it is the one mechanism that provides an unqualified guarantee of access for everyone". Brian E Hayes. February, 2007. Elements of the law on movable water boundaries'.

However, all guarantees will be removed if the Walking Access Bill becomes law!

"Section 6...[a little-used provision in the Walkways Act 1990, enabling use of unformed roads as walkways]...is a curious provision which is inconsistent with the common law, the statutory law protecting the status of roads, and the rigorous protection the New Zealand courts have provided for the interests of the public". Brian E Hayes. February, 2007. 'Roading law as it applies to unformed roads'.

Rather than repealing section 6 to protect the interests of the public, the Walking Access Bill expands its powers to bar, restrict and penalise the public. The Bill is an Act of Repression!


POLITICAL EXPEDIENCY RULES
My previous predictions as to the thrust of what Government is really on about have proved correct. Government got a hammering from the rural sector (deservedly so in my opinion) for Jim Sutton's misguided attempt at imposing public access rights over private land. Now our leaders are giving away existing public rights over public lands just to keep the rural sector quiet prior to this year's election! Clark and Co don't want a repeat.

Federated Farmers must be rejoicing - they are set to achieve everything they would ever hope for, and more. Not that a Labour-led Government has any particular affection for the Feds. Just consider the cavalier approach by Government to the concerns of pastoral lessees undertaking tenure review. Government is vigorously asserting public interest ahead of private interest in the South Island high country, even if it costs them/us millions to do so.

In the case of the Walking Access Bill, Government trumpets the fact that the Bill does NOT interfere with private property rights. What they do NOT say is that they are 'interfering' with (read 'extinguishing') public property rights. Political expediency and current electoral imperatives rule ahead of ideology, let alone principle.

Unless there is an electoral revolt, the Bill is destined to become law with Labour and National supporting it. The access-hostile content of the Bill should trigger vigorous opposition from the recreation NGO sector. Their leaderships should be held to account if they fail to resist this lamentable outcome.


WALKING ACCESS BILL 2008

The Bill establishes the New Zealand Walking Access Commission.

The Commission's functions include:
* a leadership and co-ordination role in the provision of public access to the outdoors;
* the provision of information about the location of existing public access;
* the provision of a code of responsible conduct for the guidance of the public and landholders;
* facilitating and funding the negotiation of new public access across private land.

While many of the above functions should be beneficial the imposition of Walkways over public land, especially those that are reserves or unformed roads, is unnecessary and dangerous to the public good.

Clause 3 states that the purpose of the Bill is:
"To provide the New Zealand public with safe, unimpeded walking access to the outdoors (such as around the coast and lakes, along rivers, and to public resources) so that the public can enjoy the outdoors".

Given that public lands (other than wildlife sanctuaries, etc.) already have rights of access - at least by walking - there is no need for additional walking rights to be bestowed. As set out below, in regard to public lands, the Bill actually creates a regime designed to IMPEDE walking access - contrary to the primary purpose of the Bill.

Walkway legislation has been around since the mid 1970's. Up to now this has proved to be largely ineffectual in advancing walking opportunities over private land because it depends on landholder consent. It is not unreasonable that agreement is voluntary, but it is a lesson that should have been well understood by now. The ONLY prospect of further advancing
Walkway establishment over private land arises from the offering and acceptance of payment, or other benefit, that outweighs landowner reticence in foregoing privacy, development opportunities, capital gains and succession rights from unimpeded title.

Government has not indicated any intent to dig deep into its pockets for monetary compensation. The only form of 'compensation' to farmers that has been raised during the lengthy access debate has involved so-called 'paper'
roads - the trading off of public property and rights 'in exchange' for unspecified rights over private land.

Exclamations of joy from Federated Farmers late in February last year, heralding impending farmer veto rights over public use of unformed roads, was a foreboding of what has now appeared in the Bill. The Feds, and some recreation NGOs, were briefed by officials on the Walking Access Panel's report before its release in March 2007.


The Walking Access Bill delivers to adjoining landholders -

* 'Rights' of use over unformed roads "for the same purposes and to the same extent" as if a walkway had not been declared. This follows what I believe to be erroneous advice by Brian Hayes to the effect that farmers have
unspecified rights of 'occupation' that should be accommodated as "a special need". Whereas the courts regard such 'occupiers' as no more than trespassers.
* Protection of landholders who have rights of 'frontage' to unformed legal roads including the use of vehicles, They will be able to ignore any restrictions to walking-only passage along roads that will apply to everyone else.
* Rights to request closure to the public of unformed roads adjoining their holdings, with no limitations on the grounds for such requests, or limits to acceding to such requests by the authorities, other than being 'on reasonable grounds' or 'necessary'.


Repression of public use will be effected by -

* Imposition of regulations and bylaws concerning the maintenance of "good order" on walkways, providing for the conditions under which the public may enter, remain on, or use any walkway, with penalties up to $1000.
* Imposition of various 'strict liability' offences such as having firearms, horses, dogs or vehicles.
* Penalties against offenders of up to $5000 for 'strict liability' offences.
* The onus is on the defendant to prove that at the time of the alleged offence an activity is authorised, whereas the prosecution does not need to prove that a defendant intentionally or recklessly committing the offence
knew that an offence was occurring: i.e. guilty unless proven innocent.
* More serious offences requiring 'knowledge, intent, or recklessness', including, without having the authority of the landholder of land adjacent to the walkway, enters or remains on the walkway if the walkway is closed, interferes with or disturbs livestock, or ANNOYS or DISTURBS the landholder adjacent to a walkway.
* Penalties against offenders of up to $10,000 for 'knowledge, intent, or recklessness' offences.
* Additional liability for loss, damage, or costs associated in effecting prosecutions, including salaries, wages, and incidental expenses incurred in investigating the act constituting an offence.
* Enforcement officers, including every fish and game ranger. Such officers will have powers to call on any person "in the vicinity" for assistance (no guessing required as to who is most likely to be "in the vicinity"). It is a further offence to obstruct such a person.


ROAD RESUMPTION AND PRIVATISATION
There is a key matter not touched on by the Bill. That is the use of existing Local Government Act provisions for resumption and disposal of unformed roads. Contrary to Hayes's advice to Government this is used extensively - all in secret - until such time as published in the NZ Gazette. My research indicates that resumption is currently almost as prevalent as 'stopping' actions by local authorities, which does require public process with scope for appeal to the Environment Court. The Bill, if
enacted in its present form, is likely to add impetus to resumption and disposal of roads.

There are two sets of legal access rights attached to public roads - public passage ALONG roads, and private access ACROSS road frontages to and from adjoining property.

In the drafting of the Bill, Government has concerned itself entirely with protecting private property rights. Long-established public rights are ignored. Centuries-old common law protecting public rights of unhindered passage along unformed roads are being swept aside without any acknowledgement that such rights exist. Whereas Government not only
acknowledges coexistent common law rights of access across the road 'frontages' but expressly protects these private rights in the Bill.

The door is wide open for privatisation and control of public lands by stealth, ostensibly in the name of providing 'public access'. No Government should be permitted to get away with this.

I predict that if the Bill is passed there will be a two-pronged state-sponsored attack on the most secure form of public access in New Zealand:
* by resumption and disposal of unformed roads - without public process, and
* declaring remaining unformed roads to be walkways, making them no more than private rights of way.

The rest of the Bill is relatively harmless. The effectiveness of any future central government walking access initiatives will depend on the allegiancesand calibre of the people appointed to the NZ Access Commission, and the adequacy of government funding. Going by the failure of the former NZ Walkways Commission, we should not expect too much.


FIVE ACTIONS YOU CAN TAKE -

By submission by Wednesday, 21 May, 2008, to -

Committee Secretariat
Local Government and Environment
Parliament House
Wellington

1. DEMAND the removal from the Walking Access Bill all provisions for declaring walkways over public land.

2. ASK that all road resumption powers under the Local Government Act be subject to 'road stopping' procedures with public rights of appeal to the Environment Court.

The committee requires 2 copies of each submission if made in writing. Those wishing to appear before the committee to speak to their submissions should state this clearly and provide a day time telephone contact number.


3. WRITE to the Prime Minister and other MPs expressing dismay at the Bill.

4. QUESTION your recreation organisation as to their role if consulted by or providing advice to Government on these matters (FMC, PANZ, and F&G NZ in particular).

5. MAKE THIS AN ELECTION ISSUE THAT GOVERNMENT CANNOT IGNORE. This would be the most effective measure of all.



Bruce Mason
25 April 2008

http://www.recreationaccess.org.nz
cosmo1
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by cosmo1 »

how is it possiable to copy this and promote it on another fishing website plse,the definatly needs to be made ANOTHER ELECTION ISSUE AS IF WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH ALREADY,WE CAN NOT SIT BACK AND LET THIS ONE SLIDE BECAUSE LIKE A LOT OF THINGS UNLESS WE VOICE OUR OPINION WE WILL LOSE ACCESS ONCE MORE
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TJ
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by TJ »

cosmo1 wrote:how is it possiable to copy this and promote it on another fishing website plse,the definatly needs to be made ANOTHER ELECTION ISSUE AS IF WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH ALREADY,WE CAN NOT SIT BACK AND LET THIS ONE SLIDE BECAUSE LIKE A LOT OF THINGS UNLESS WE VOICE OUR OPINION WE WILL LOSE ACCESS ONCE MORE


Just reply to Peter's posting and use "QUOTE" button, that way his message will be listed in the window on top where you type (just as above with your posting). Before submitting it here, just highlight the text and copy and paste wherever you like.
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smurf182
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

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Below are the comments of Hugh Barr, of CORANZ, as found on the nzfwda website http://www.liveupdater.com/nzfwda/DocumentLibrary/WalkingAccessBill-Comments-1.rtf Alternatively click on this link and download/print. I encourage everyone to read this, as it less than 3 pages long and it lays out everything wrong with the Walking Access Bill in simple terms. Many of the points raised in this piece could form the basis of your submissions. Although the 4x4 community is not mentioned make no mistake - this bill will be detrimental too all forms of recreation on public land in NZ.

" Walking Access Bill - designed to reduce and limit public access.

Summary: The Bill lets down the public’s desire for better public access provision, being focussed primarily on replacing public roads, the strongest form of access, with one of the least satisfactory forms of public access namely Walkways. Walkways across private land hardly exist, and in any case are adequately looked after by DOC. Walkways can be readily closed, and deny access to people with dogs, recreational firearms, cyclists, horse-riders, all of whom can use formed or unformed public roads, the normal means of access.

This Bill sets up a Walking Access Commission focussed primarily on Walkways. It will restrict and downgrade public access to the countryside. The Bill is bad in many areas. It will be difficult to amend to be acceptable. A similar Walkways Commission was tried between 1975 and 1990. It was ineffective, and was abolished by the fourth Labour Government. Walkways are not the answer to better public access to the countryside, coasts water bodies etc. Stronger access mechanisms are essential.

The Bill promotes the Commission providing walkways across public conservation land. But this is and should remain DOC’s responsibility. There is no need for this small Crown agency to be saddled with providing “Walkways”. DOC has been funded $349 million over ten years to build and maintain these and other facilities. The Walkways system probably costs DOC some $1 million a year to maintain.

The Commission also can replace the guaranteed public access provided by unformed public roads by changing them to insecure limited access Walkways. This is a major downgrading of public access through private land.

This Bill has been developed under Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry (MAF). The Bill’s unsatisfactory nature comes partly from a major conflict with MAF’s purpose. MAF is there to serve rural landowners, not recreational users. If the Access Commission is to have any neutrality and integrity it must not be in MAF, as currently proposed. LINZ with a changed brief, and the Minister of Lands are a much more appropriate home, given the Minister of Lands is often the decision maker on protection of access on legal roads, marginal strips etc.

There is no guarantee the Board of the Commission will have any recreational representatives. Recreational professionals have been excluded from the two Acland panels. To be workable, at least three of the Board members should recreationists with public access knowledge.

Including the Government Super Fund (Clauses 12-14) shows the Bill is about providing jobs for the boys in MAF as it is with public access. These admin matters have no place in the Bill.

More detailed comments:
1 Bill severely downgraded in terms of providing public access, or showing Access “leadership”:
This is clear from page 2 first sentence: “The Bill re-enacts in large measure the provisions of the NZ Walkways Act 1990.”

The Commission should not be weighed down with administering walkways, when they are adequately looked after the Department of Conservation. A range of recreational views and ideas also need to be guaranteed a place on the Commission’s Board, if it is to have any credibility.

2 Walkways aren’t needed – they are a very unsatisfactory type of access:
Prior to 1990 there was a Walkways Commission (WC), established in 1975, composed primarily of farming and rural landowner interests, for providing public walkways across private, usually rural, land. The legislation was administered by Lands and Survey Department, and was transferred to DOC in 1987. The Walkways Commission was an absolute failure. It was abolished by the 4th Labour Government in 1990, by Geoffrey Palmer’s Quango Hunt. Responsibilities were then passed to DOC, where they now are.

In its 15 years the WC had set up only 1400 km of Walkways. Some 90% of these were on Public Conservation Land, where the public can go freely anyway. This was an easy and costless but pointless option. Many were already tracks used by the public, simply renamed Walkways.

Only 10% of the Km were across private land, and very few of these were registered, ie were permanent. Most rural landowners did not want a permanent public Walkway on their title. It was an encumbrance significantly lowering their property’s value.

As anyone agreeing to a Walkway across their property gets no compensation, ie it is a cheap deal for the Crown, and depends on the generosity of the landowner, this is understandable. Walkways should not be used to downgrade already existing public access.

Walkways are one of the least satisfactory types of public access across private land. They can be closed for “lambing” or “fire risk” on the owner’s say so. For example the controversial walkway up Mt Hikurangi on the East Coast can be closed arbitrarily for Maori cultural purposes for 14 days/year, and for lambing and farm management for 21 consecutive days a year, and for up to 50 days/year in total. There is no certainty one will be able to walk it when one gets there.

3 Better methods of public access across private land – legal roads and Tenure Review:
The most secure form of public access is by legal roads. These allow the public on a bicycle, with a dog or gun, on a horse etc to pass and repass. The Acland Panel proposed that these be identified on the ground, and used more for public access to the countryside. The Acland Panel identified 45,000 km of unformed legal roads as being potentially available to enhance public access. This Bill aims to destroy the unformed public road system, by turning such general access-ways into these highly restricted Walkways.

Public access in South Island Tenure Review is almost never provided by NZ Walkways, because of their uncertainty. Nor can the public cycle, take a dog, or take a firearm on them. They are a very restricted type of access, quite unsuited for providing adequate public access to the countryside, or to coasts, rivers, lakes or public conservation land. One sees the hand of the anti-access faction, namely Federated Farmers.

4 Commission should not be under MAF:
A major conflict of interest, apparent from the start of this process, is having the Access Commission in MAF. MAF’s role is to serve rural landholders. Because of this it usually has an antagonistic attitude to both the rural and urban public’s access needs. This conflict of interest is apparent in the farcical way this Access Commissioner Bill has been hijacked away from influence by recreational users. Parliament must resolve this major conflict of interest by placing the Commission under a more neutral department eg LINZ and the Minister of Lands.

Under MAF, recreational user representatives were largely excluded from the Acland Access Panels, as were their concerns and ideas from the Panel’s proposals. Landholders and rural representatives, and their views have dominated. This sidelining of legitimate recreational access concerns led to the only recreational professional on the second Acland Panel, Bryce Johnson, being forced to come up with a minority report.

5 Walkways over public land: As discussed above, these aren’t attractive forms of access. On public land they would restrict current access ie the public’s use of tracks on Public Conservation Land (PCL) to only that subsection of the public that is permitted to use walkways ie to exclude people with a gun or dog, on a cycle or horse, who can use unformed legal roads. Locking public stakeholder groups out of PCL should not be an aim of this Bill.

6 Commission should have a wider role on public Access generally: Walking access is only part of the major issues recreational users have with access.. This was clearly put and recognised in Acland Access discussions. However, it is clearly excluded in the Bill (Clause 3). This sidelines the Commission to minimal access usefulness.

7 Recreational users need assured representatives on the board:
Given the sidelining of recreational representatives in the Acland Panel, it is essential to have legitimate recreational representatives on the Commission Board. Otherwise the Commission should have its name changed to the Anti Walking Access Landholders Commission.

8 Betrayal of the recreational public:
This Bill makes Public Access a farce, favouring Federated Farmers, the most vociferous anti-recreational access lobbyists. The issue now is can Labour find the strength to put the Commission back on track to be a guardian of public access. This looks improbable.

9 Need to re-focus and rewrite this Bill: There is a lot wrong with this Bill from almost every recreational access viewpoint.
To be acceptable, the following changes must be made:
1 Leave Walkways with DOC, and don’t rewrite the 1990 Walkways Act into this legislation.
2 Prohibit Walkways across Public Conservation Land.. Walkways are aimed at provision of low quality public access across private land, based on the generosity of the landowner.
3 Prohibit walkways replacing legal roads and downgrading them to walkway status.
4 Ensure that the Public Access Commissioner can consider access issues other than just walking without a gun or a dog.
5 Site the Commission in a department other than MAF or DOC, reporting to a Minister other than MAF, Rural Affairs (the present Minister) or DOC. Eg LINZ and Min of Lands
6 Ensure at least three members of the Board are nominated by outdoor recreational interests.


10 Conclusion:
Without all six of these changes there is no advantage to having this Bill passed. It is better to continue with the present unsatisfactory situation, than to greatly downgrade the public’s access rights with the major detrimental changes proposed in this Bill. Concentrating on replacing sure and secure forms of public access, such as legal roads, with much less secure and certain Walkways is unacceptable to the recreational community.
There is also no point in a Board, tasked with improving public access, being almost wholly stacked with rural landowner advocates, set on reducing and controlling public access to the countryside.

Best Regards
Hugh Barr "
PeterVahry
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

A NZFWDA member has found a site that makes it simple to email to all or any MPs with your own message.

http://www.betterdemocracy.co.nz/email_mps.php

This is a fantastic way to get our message out... well, only if they bother to read them and happen to be in the country!

It is simple, so let's try it.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

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er my MP is in court on charges at the mo :D :D
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by rowinz »

Not sure if its up their alley, but could the AA lend some weight to this type of thing? Especially given the recent AA Directions magazine Editor's Letter about enjoying our country.

http://www.aadirections.co.nz/Issues/Au ... editor.php

Just a thought.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

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A lot of us are AA members.....perhaps we can contact them
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

Excellent thought Rowan, zap them an email or pick up the phone. Don't leave it to me, I'm meant to be working too!
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

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The biggest problem that we are going to have here is that essentially, as people, we are lazy (call it laid back if you like, but it means the same thing). If the action we need to take requires reading screeds of policy that is worded to deter the average person, and then picking out the finer points and compiling a letter to our local (or all) MP, it is just too hard.
I am not commenting on weather this line of thinking is right or wrong, it just is!
If there was a way to convey our very strong disapproval at this proposed legislation that was much simpler, then the response (imho) will be much greater.
You must know what i am saying here Peter, you have to deal with this kind of attitude all the time, and in a perfect world we would all have the same conviction as you to get things done, but alas, this is not the case.
I do not have much understanding of what is required in the way of replying to this type of action, but for those who do, can we please see if a generic type of response, that can have a few personal details and comments inserted, can be utilised.
If I am barking up the wrong tree here, or have offended any one of the fine people who work very hard on OUR behalf (because it is all too hard for us to do it) then please accept my apologies. Your continued work out of the public eye is often thankless, but I can assure you, from my point of view anyway, it is greatly appreciated.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by Heath »

Done.
Selected all MP's in a letter writing page.
will see what happens next.

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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by Smurf »

rokhound wrote:The biggest problem that we are going to have here is that essentially, as people, we are lazy (call it laid back if you like, but it means the same thing). If the action we need to take requires reading screeds of policy that is worded to deter the average person, and then picking out the finer points and compiling a letter to our local (or all) MP, it is just too hard.
I am not commenting on weather this line of thinking is right or wrong, it just is!
If there was a way to convey our very strong disapproval at this proposed legislation that was much simpler, then the response (imho) will be much greater.
You must know what i am saying here Peter, you have to deal with this kind of attitude all the time, and in a perfect world we would all have the same conviction as you to get things done, but alas, this is not the case.
I do not have much understanding of what is required in the way of replying to this type of action, but for those who do, can we please see if a generic type of response, that can have a few personal details and comments inserted, can be utilised.
If I am barking up the wrong tree here, or have offended any one of the fine people who work very hard on OUR behalf (because it is all too hard for us to do it) then please accept my apologies. Your continued work out of the public eye is often thankless, but I can assure you, from my point of view anyway, it is greatly appreciated.


I'd have to agree with Rok here, I'm definitely a supporter of this cause, we need to address this bill. But I'm not a great one to get pen (words) to paper either, my way with words, went ages ago.
A generic "fill in the gaps and modify as you see fit" form would be great.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

The following was drafted by Andy Cockroft who has suggested it may form the basis of some emails to MPs...

I would draw your attention to provisions of the Walking Access Bill currently before Parliament.
Specifically, any provision that allows the establishment of Walkways across Public Lands. And, most particular any ability to replace a Legal Road by a Walkway.

Legal Roads are Public Land, but they go much further. Established as a result of Queen Victoria's note to Governor Hobson of December 1840 in which she expressed the desire that all New Zealanders should have free and unencumbered access to the great outdoors for recreational purposes. One off-shoot of this is commonly referred to as the Queen's Chain - a
practicality that persists in various forms (no matter what various Government Departments would have you believe) to this very day.

The other outcome of Queen Victoria's note, was the establishment of a roading network. Some of this is currently formed, but those remaining 56,000 Km of unformed portions are no more nor no less a legal road than those in everyday use.

Legal Roads (including unformed or "paper" roads") provide an absolute and guaranteed right of access to the public. It is an enforceable right, and the Courts have consistently upheld that right both here and throughout the rest of the Commonwealth, as being absolute and immutable.

To suggest that this Bill might allow the replacement of a legal road (affording guaranteed and unencumbered passage) with a walkway (affording no similar guarantees - and in fact easily extinguishable) is repugnant to the Kiwi way of life.

A Walkway does not allow automatically for accompanying dogs, horses, firearms nor vehicles - the Roading network (including paper Roads) in general does.

Why replace an absolute legal guarantee with a second-class "maybe"

Please exercise your vote to remove any provisions regarding establishment of walkways across public lands - the public already hold these rights at law now - why dilute them?
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by Militaris »

Could also be a idea to promote this 'issue' on other forums which you use. It could be a issue for everyone who anyone who uses the outdoors, even walkers.

To help prevent double-ups I have already 'submitted' or 'bumped' topics on this issue on the following forums. The more people that hear about it the greater the hope for change. The more the better if you ask me... but don,t spam.

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz
http://www.Fishing.net.nz
http://www.tramper.co.nz
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by xj »

Aunty Helen, the leader of Helengrad is an enthusiastic walker too isnt she????? Anyone guess whose going to be at the forefront of pushing this through???

Remember the same person that didnt know her drivers were going waaayyyyy too fast in order to get her to a footy game, the same person that signed an autograph on a painting that she didnt paint, then allowed it to be sold at auction.

I smell me a big fat rat.

I kept my email to the MP's short and to the point. Too late in the night for flowering things up with big words:

Hunters, trail bikers, fishermen, horse riders, 4x4 users (of which i am one) are all to be marginalised in favour of "walkers"?

The queens chain already exits, and is accessable by walkers, "paper" roads and "unformed" roads are used by all of the above participants of said recreations. Why exactly does any change need to be made, unless personal agendas are being pushed to promote (We all know Helen likes a good walk) their own ends.
My wife and son enjoy using our 4x4 to get to otherwise inaccessable parts of our beautiful country, as did I with my parents not so many years ago. Take that away for the future generations, and you're contributing to the drive "indoors" where x-boxes and the internet will be our grandchildrens only entertainment (as if its not bad enough already!!)
There is a groundswell of discontent rapidly gaining momentum from people whose clean living, adventuresome lifestyles are going to be adversly affected if this dictatorial and anti-kiwi-outdoors bill comes to pass.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by DieselBoy »

xj wrote:Aunty Helen, the leader of Helengrad is an enthusiastic walker too isnt she????? Anyone guess whose going to be at the forefront of pushing this through???

Remember the same person that didnt know her drivers were going waaayyyyy too fast in order to get her to a footy game, the same person that signed an autograph on a painting that she didnt paint, then allowed it to be sold at auction.

I smell me a big fat rat.

I kept my email to the MP's short and to the point. Too late in the night for flowering things up with big words:

Hunters, trail bikers, fishermen, horse riders, 4x4 users (of which i am one) are all to be marginalised in favour of "walkers"?

The queens chain already exits, and is accessable by walkers, "paper" roads and "unformed" roads are used by all of the above participants of said recreations. Why exactly does any change need to be made, unless personal agendas are being pushed to promote (We all know Helen likes a good walk) their own ends.
My wife and son enjoy using our 4x4 to get to otherwise inaccessable parts of our beautiful country, as did I with my parents not so many years ago. Take that away for the future generations, and you're contributing to the drive "indoors" where x-boxes and the internet will be our grandchildrens only entertainment (as if its not bad enough already!!)
There is a groundswell of discontent rapidly gaining momentum from people whose clean living, adventuresome lifestyles are going to be adversly affected if this dictatorial and anti-kiwi-outdoors bill comes to pass.



Well said!!!!!
lax2wlg wrote:Is that like saying 'she's hot, for a crackwhore??
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by xj »

One Nat member of Parliment has responded with "Fair Point!", Uniteds leader and co leader have responded that they actually support the bill, but admit to there being a hell of a lot of work still to be done by interested and dis-interested parties on all fronts [paraphrasing], and of course theres been the automated responses from the PA's saying they will pass on the comments...... sure, and we're getting tax cuts this year too....
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

We still need more MPs stirred up. I was called by the office of Damien O'Connor today to find out what the reason behind the emails is. They said that 13 emails had been received by MPs on the subject. I thought it would have been more than that by now... maybe we need to step it up!
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by xj »

PeterVahry wrote:We still need more MPs stirred up. I was called by the office of Damien O'Connor today to find out what the reason behind the emails is.


Not too bright then huh, I would have thought the reason was fairly overt. Perhaps big print and small words might simplify the rationale of those who are sending the mails. Sorry, I'm being facetious.

Come on people of ORE, its not too hard to send a bulk mail to them all. the termonolgy doesnt have to be flowery and onerous.... just put down how you feel, its our MP's JOBS to listen to the people.

Again, the link that Peter posted in an earlier thread: http://www.betterdemocracy.co.nz/email_mps.php clik and follow the prompts, it's really that easy.

Mark

(btw, while I wrote "tell them what you feel"... perhaps omitting any swearing and cursing might be a good idea!!! :D )
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by access4WD »

Hi everyone
The draft bill covers off on recommendations that are basically the Ackland Report on Walking access recommended to Parliament.

I have to say this up front as a start, that if you want to get involved with follow up then do your own research and make your submissions.
At the very least read the Bill, come to your own conclusions. Simply writing all the same letter and trying to play the numbers game in this case will not work. I strongly advise not to follow the path that Bruce Mason has outlined on this thread and send in his letter, MP’s may act stupid at times, but they are simple enough to see the same letter written and signed by 100, or a 1000, or a 100,000 or so people as exactly that, the same letter so it only really counts as One submission. So get involved if you choose to, but do your own thing. Taking no action is 1000 times better than just sending in someone’s work and just signing it to ‘Make up the numbers’ That is an old trick that now no longer has any value or credibility.
Remember too that all organisations, clubs etc., that are involved in recreation will be making submissions too, so if you belong to a Club (be it a 4WD Club, Fishing Hunting Club what ever) that is in recreation then find out what their points are as they may well be covering your personal views.

To individuals who want to get involved to help I have some data for you:-
(my personal views on this Bill )

The major thrust of this Bill is to set up a Walking Access Commission, and that Commission will deal with sorting out mainly walking access issues that exist over the use of both public and private land for the public of NZ. There are many issues that everyone will know that exist now, relating to public access and reading the Bill there are no solutions in it other than to use the Commission to deal with these issues. It also has the power to help Hunters, Fishing and Recreational folk like us in vehicles. As section 10,i) deals with that. So once the Commission is set up we need (particularly the 4WD Community) to have good dialogue and be a part of dealing with the change. As you will well know a lot of Public Land is now being abused by neighbouring land owners, like public unformed roads going over some farm land (as an example) that the farmer thinks he or she owns, like River Beds farmers and neighbours think they own, where as You and I know that that is public land that everyone should enjoy, and we are being kept out as the neighbouring land owner thinks it is their land. Wrong it is OUR LAND! So it is not all bad, in that respect as the Commission will deal with those issues.
But like all changes, there comes a price, and under an MMP political environment there is compromise. We need to do battle with the correct tools, not charge off on a tangent in my view. So we need to do our homework and correctly follow the process of Public Submissions and fight this Bill Clause by Clause so we get a better Bill. This Bill will not go away.

Key points:-

1 Both National & Labour MP's support the basic thrust of this Bill so it will not be a political free for all, it will go through. All the emotional pleas to MP’s and the like are waste of breath and effort. We need to focus on making appropriate appeals and debate to the relevant sections to make any changes apply. This Bill will not go away through political pressure.

2 Our impact is to get to the submission process and clarify key parts and point to changes we want clause by clause, so the Bill will finished modified to what is says now.

3 Key issues are as I see them for 4WD People (and there are more but these are the important ones) to focus on:-
a) Part 2 Sec 10, Functions of the Commission; Clause (k) Says 'receiving and managing private funding, contributions, or sponsorship for the promotion of Walking Access' This has to be removed. This will allow private land owners or other parties to literally 'Buy’ what ever they want. It is a dangerous clause.
All funding for the Commission should come from Central Government.

b) Part 3 Sec 25 is of great concern, as it does not totally recognise the status of an ‘Unformed Public Road.’ Once a Public Road is used as a walkway does it loose it’s status? The Act is not clear on that.
We want and need the legal status of a Public road to remain as is even though some or part of a public road could and can be used as a Walkway as determined by this Bill.
Our position should be that a walkway can exist on a unformed Public road, but the Unformed public road status must remain as what it is a Publicly owned unformed public road.

Cheers and good hunting.
Paul
Access Coordinator
Combined 4WD Clubs Inc
http://www.4wd.org.nz
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by nuts »

emails written and sent
people think i have a problem with insanity .... i dont i enjoy every minute ..... 0278900597
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by Heath »

last reply I got.

On behalf of Hon Clayton Cosgrove, Minister for Sport and Recreation, thank you for your email of 2 May 2008, regarding the Walking Access Bill. The matter you have raised falls within the responsibilities of the Minister for Rural Affairs, the Hon Damien O'Connor. Therefore I have forwarded your email to the Office of Hon Damien O'Connor, for consideration

So now walking is not seen as a recreation but part of the rural affairs portfolio?

Seems they dont really know who is in charge of what and are all running for cover (hot potato anyone).

Heath
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by coxsy »

sent a better letter to ross roberson mp of manukau :D :twisted:
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by xj »

Anyone else got David Carter's response? Nice to see an MP who is prepared to actually say something/anything rather than sit on the fence and throw out a generic "hot potato" response.
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by PeterVahry »

Yes, I got probably the same message. I replied thanking him and asked that National make a public stand.

Peter
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by pagar »

Is a three page email too long? hope you guy's don't mind I parafrased some of your concerns in with mine. I shall await with baited breath for a reasponce and post it in as a submision as well. good on you guy's that have contacted mp's etc and to those yet to do so get off your asses !! Put someting on paper or email, unless loosing your right to drive paper roads does not mean anything to you, it does not need to be an essay just tell them how you feel about it. any body can do it, and being lazy on this issue is not excusable :D
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by BrentC »

I like this response

Dear Brent

Thank you for your email regarding the Walking Access Bill. Clearly there needs to be a balance as to land owners rights and concerns for
stock etc and the use of public paper roads.

National has supported the Bill to Select Committee, but has made no commitment beyond that stage. We will certainly have to clear up the
poor way the Bill has been drafted. National supports making publicly
owned land more accessible, which is a major concept of the Bill.

Regards

Paul Hutchison
MP for Port Waikato



-----Original Message-----
From: brent@nzgpsmaps.com [mailto:brent@nzgpsmaps.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 7 May 2008 8:42 a.m.
To: port.waikato@xtra.co.nz
Subject: Walking Access Bill



Dear Paul

I am absolutely dismayed that the "Walking Access Bill" has made it's
way into Parliament.

Particularly the way it gives Local councils the right to arbitrarily
close unformed roads.

These roads are our heritage - similar to UK lane ways and walk ways and
should be kept at it's current legal status.

Can you please take an interest in this bill and hopefully agree that it
isn't useful or necessary.

Regards,
Brent Cannard
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Re: Walking Access Bill action needed

Post by BrentC »

and

Dear Brent,

Thank you for your email in reference to the Walking Access Bill.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the establishment of walkways
in New Zealand through a new body known as the New Zealand Walking
Access Commission.

In relation to existing, unformed legal roads (sometimes referred to as
"paper roads"), if the Commission proposes to declare the land to be a
walkway it must go through a very lengthy process indeed.

Firstly they cannot do that without the consent of the statutory officer
that owns, controls, or administers that public land i.e. the Minister,
department, local authority, public body, or statutory officer
concerned. That consent may be subject to any conditions that the
administering authority may impose.

In addition, if the land concerned includes an unformed legal road, the
Commission must consult the public on the proposal by giving public
notice of the proposed declaration, inviting the public to comment on
it, and considering the comments received. The Commission must also
obtain the written consent of the Local Authority in whose district the
land is located. If the local authority consents to the declaration of a
walkway, the land owners with legal frontage on, or direct access to the
unformed legal road will retain their existing right to use the unformed
legal road.

All those "hoops" must be worked through, on a case by case basis,
before any public land, including unformed legal roads, can be converted
to a walkway.

In addition, it must be remembered that there are a huge number of
"paper roads" in New Zealand which are exactly that i.e. they exist only
on paper. Some are completely fenced off. Others proceed over steep
terrain which is impossible to traverse unless you have the stamina of
Sir Edmund Hillary! In other words they are in every sense "paper"
roads, not actual roads.

Given those realities, it seems to me that the Bill strikes a good
balance and will allow legal walking access into many areas which are
presently inaccessible.

As far as I am aware, there is no aim or agenda to alter the status of
formed legal roads which are at present being used by four wheel drive,
and other recreational vehicles.

I encourage all concerned groups to make detailed submissions on the
Bill to the Select Committee.

With all good wishes,

Gordon Copeland
Independent MP
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