correcting positive camber

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pagar
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correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

Hi Guy's well last night I pulled my front end apart to remove diff to install new ARB locker and will be rbuilding the brakes while all apart, unfortunatly my workshop manual is useless as tits on a donkey's ass and I cannot figure out if there is a way to fix positive camber on one side (makes it a bit unpredictable on the open road not to mention chewwing up the tyres) any help would be appreciated. Cheers
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Bulletproof »

pagar wrote:Hi Guy's well last night I pulled my front end apart to remove diff to install new ARB locker and will be rbuilding the brakes while all apart, unfortunatly my workshop manual is useless as tits on a donkey's ass and I cannot figure out if there is a way to fix positive camber on one side (makes it a bit unpredictable on the open road not to mention chewwing up the tyres) any help would be appreciated. Cheers


Why do you think your camber is out ? Because with a solid axle it is set.

You are not getting confused with the caster angle that can alter with a lift kit and can be fixed by putting wedges between the axle and the leaf spring.

The problem may be wheel alignment.

Hope this is of help
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by DieselBoy »

Bulletproof wrote:
pagar wrote:Hi Guy's well last night I pulled my front end apart to remove diff to install new ARB locker and will be rbuilding the brakes while all apart, unfortunatly my workshop manual is useless as tits on a donkey's ass and I cannot figure out if there is a way to fix positive camber on one side (makes it a bit unpredictable on the open road not to mention chewwing up the tyres) any help would be appreciated. Cheers


Why do you think your camber is out ? Because with a solid axle it is set.

You are not getting confused with the caster angle that can alter with a lift kit and can be fixed by putting wedges between the axle and the leaf spring.

Hope this is of help
Richard


Why do you think the camber is out? Because a solid axle is set.

Unless you have been really abusive and bent the housing.

You are not getting confused with the caster angle that can alter with a lift kit and can be fixed by putting wedges between the axle and the leaf spring.

Although caster angle doesn't affect tire wear as stated, but will make it wonder around on the road when going in a straight line.

You may need to check the toe in and toe out which is easily checked with a tape measure and just about as easily corretced.

As all the above scenarios are obviously wheel alignemnt related, as was the subject matter of your post, i would wait untill you have the vehicle back together and driveable, then take it in for a wheel alignment.

That will highlight any missalignment of the wheels.

Also, anything wheel alignment related that can be adjusted, is best done with the wheels on, and the vehicle sitting in a level neutral position.

Hope thats more helpfull :D
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

no, toe in and caster are within normal limits, the only thing that I can think of is if last owner was hit buy another car in the lower wheel, it is visably out to look at and chewed through 1mm of tread on outer tyre within about 2000ks, I know I can compensate by adjusting the toe in to stop it trying to cross the road every time I hit a pot hole, but this will only increase the wear on my tyres (on road at least) I was hoping that there was some sort of shim or something in the king pin locators that I could "f" with while in bits, camber has no external adjustment on these things so no point putting on a wheel aligner to sort cause hub needs pulling apart to fix anything that could be fixed.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by DieselBoy »

Read the replies carefully again :D

You can't adjust the camber.

If your 100% sure the camber is out (which is why a wheel alignment was recommended, it would show you exactly where the problem is) then start looking for a new axle housing :(
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by lilpigzuk »

Negative camber can only really happen in IFS vehicles, Must be a bent housing/stub axle?

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Bulletproof »

pagar wrote:no, toe in and caster are within normal limits, the only thing that I can think of is if last owner was hit buy another car in the lower wheel, it is visably out to look at and chewed through 1mm of tread on outer tyre within about 2000ks, I know I can compensate by adjusting the toe in to stop it trying to cross the road every time I hit a pot hole, but this will only increase the wear on my tyres (on road at least) I was hoping that there was some sort of shim or something in the king pin locators that I could "f" with while in bits, camber has no external adjustment on these things so no point putting on a wheel aligner to sort cause hub needs pulling apart to fix anything that could be fixed.


If you suspect camber is out why not run a straight edge vertically up both discs and measure top and bottom. The camber is only about 1 degree.
It would have to be a long way out to make it handle like a dog.

Caster is more critical because the king pin angle is about 9 degrees and if the caster is over 4 degrees positive it can really cause handling problems especially if the steering damper is worn with wheel shake.
I have a landcruiser diff and my caster is 3.4 degrees and without the steering damper is like a dog on the road with the simex tyres.

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by muddymatt »

Last time I had a solid axle Cruiser apart there was a bearing at the top and bottom of the kingpin. If the lower bearing was collapsed then you would get lots of positive camber as if the wheel was tucked in at the bottom. Also I think the end plates that bolt through the bearing to locate the swivel/kingpin assay are not universal and come in different sizes so check yours from side to side while apart.

Good luck,

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by mud_slinger »

if you give me the year and chassis number and details bout ya truck i can look up the specs for yours on my alignment machine and get you the info you need :mrgreen:
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

thanks Matt that is the kind of info I need to know, it is therefore poible that they have been reasembled in the wrong way. I will strip them out and check them. as to above truck is a 1987 BJ74 toyota cruiser mwb. cheers
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

I think the end plates muddymatt is refering to is the shims to adjust the swivel bearing preloads. These wont have any affect on angle as the kingpins will always stay in the same plane regardless of the shims used.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by DieselBoy »

Exactly Sadam, i think Pagar is looking for an answer/solution where there isn't one. (despite the fact he has been told by four seperate people in the above posts)

You either live with it or find a new housing Pagar. But get it checked first to see what your dealing with and to determine that the problem isn't infact else where.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

well despite what four people may have told me dieselboy I am trying to assertain weather it is my axle housing for sure or if it is posible that the kingpins can either wear or somehow bend or otherwise before i fork out for a new housing? five people told me my turbo was rooted last month of which four were mechanics one of which a turbo and diesel mechanic and they were all wrong as I had a stretched stud on my manifold and the gasket was leaking under full load. just trying to be sure as last time cost me a replacement turbo And a week and a half of "f"ing around for a $25 gasket. :)
If you follow me in the bush you must be mad cause I'm plain CRAZY !!!

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

I think the long and short of it is about the only things you can adjust are the toe in and the swivel bearing preloads, everything else is fixed. Might be time to do a strip down of the front end and see if you can visually find anything that may have bent out of alignment after the accident? If theres funny tyre wear that confirms theres something out of correct alignment :mrgreen:
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by DieselBoy »

pagar wrote:well despite what four people may have told me dieselboy I am trying to assertain weather it is my axle housing for sure or if it is posible that the kingpins can either wear or somehow bend or otherwise before i fork out for a new housing? five people told me my turbo was rooted last month of which four were mechanics one of which a turbo and diesel mechanic and they were all wrong as I had a stretched stud on my manifold and the gasket was leaking under full load. just trying to be sure as last time cost me a replacement turbo And a week and a half of "f"ing around for a $25 gasket. :)



Well, if you refuse to believe what 4 people have told you, and haven't taken the time to go and investigate further based on what you have been advised, then its a lost cause.

Checking the king pin bearings is a 10min job. Someone would have had to have left a bearing out completely for it to affect the camber, and it would be plain scary to drive.

I don't understand the way you think. You say you F**ked around for a week or so with your turbo issues, getting false advice from mechanics, and where looking at buying a new turbo, but it turned out to be a $25 gasket.

So logically, based on what has been advised in this thread in relation to the fact that camber is not adjustable, and almost certainly the product of a bent axle housing, would it not be sensible as has been suggested several times, to spend the megre $40 on a wheel alignment to determine that camber is infact the issue, and not some $20 replacement part, prior to spending $500 on a replacement housing????
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Re: correcting positive camber

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I have had a wheel alignment not long after buying wagon,(unfortunatly went to a local guy not my mates workshop on the other side of town) he informed me that the camber is out and that they could not adjust it. hence my asking other cruiser owners what they think, and checking that it is definatly the housing is what I am doing here, I am not ignoring what you or anyone else has advised I just struggle to see how the housing could be bent with no sign of cracking or damage externally hence questions on king pins etc as my manual says nothing about camber at all. and unfortunatly my freind was unsure if there was anything internally that could cause such an effect. I may well be clutching at straws but is not my intent to offend.

under the kingpin caps/ steering arm is there anything I should be aware of before I remove IE anything that is going to spring out etc? failing any damage to the pins all I can think of is to put it back together when my diff comes back and put it up on my mates wheel aligner and see if we can bump the caster up a bit more to improve right hand cornering, cause at the moment the effect of caster is not enough on the left wheel when turning right and if I hit a bump it tends to wander a bit where as it turns right like a race car (well all except for the mass of body roll etc one gets from driving a whale...)
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

pagar wrote:under the kingpin caps/ steering arm is there anything I should be aware of before I remove IE anything that is going to spring out etc?


Theres only the shims in there and they arent going to fall out in a hurry. You want to mark them (Left Top, Left Bottom, Right Top etc) as you take them out so you get the correct shimming and preload back when you reassemble it. While your at it you could always check the preload is within the correct tollerance while your at it, I think its between 6-12lb measured from the end of the steering arm?
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

thanks, for your input, I will do and also check my dapner is up to it as well. the other issue I have (which has made things worse) is fitted 36mm spacers to stop the 35's rubbing under articulation, which now that I think of it if I increase the caster any more the stearing will be even heavier so that will be a no go too. I have however bought a set of secondhand 33's as spares so I can fit those to try them with my locker and lsd to see if it performs okay which means I can go with out the spacers and posibly drop truck back down abit too. all this trouble to play in the mud, I must be nuts.....
If you follow me in the bush you must be mad cause I'm plain CRAZY !!!

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Bulletproof »

There is another possiblity and that is you have sheered the locating pin on the top of the spring off and the axle is not square to the body. This puts the alignment with the back wheels out causing the problems you are talking about.

Just another thing worth checking.

This what the top king pin mount looks like . The shims fit on the flange and the king pin bearing is located on the spigit
You will also notice I have fitted a grease nipple to grease the top bearing that normally rusts

Image

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

Theres a whole pile of shit that can affect your steering.... this is where some of those clever bastards from canty pop into the thread and give you heaps of ideas but you still cant go past the tell tale sign of funny tyre wear telling you somethings out of alignment. Your wheel spacers, ball joints, damper, shocks etc could also be contributing to makeing the thing hard to steer as well.

All my old 40 series cruisers years ago had retreaded out of ballance 825 SAT's on widened rims and they all took up both lanes of the road to keep it going in a straight line.... maybe its just a cruiser thing :lol: :lol:

My 70 steers pretty straight, the first truck I've owned that does and I've just had my centres flipped in my rims to push the offset out a further 65mm (a bit more than you spacers) and they've been beadlocked and the tyres (tahs for you other guys) stuck back on without ballanceing and its still pretty straight on the road
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

wanna swap trucks...... but as to balancing, I balanced the 35's when I bought them (no small feat for the little wheel balance machine (poor thing just about shit itself with the weight had to spin them by hand to get them going) and after the first outing I had knocked all the weights off the out side of one rim (90 grams worth) and could not feel the difference cause the bloody things are so heavy to start with.... :lol: :lol: my last truck drove real straight starting to regret the upgrade.....
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

pagar wrote:wanna swap trucks......


Nope Image Image :lol: :lol:
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

on another note my old club truck had the front springs on backwards (moving the diff forward slightly if I remember correctly) anyone know of any reason not to do the same to this one? with spaced rims I do not have much room behind the wheel when turning.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Bulletproof »

pagar wrote:no, toe in and caster are within normal limits,


You have 36mm spacers on the wheels and a 80mm lift so normal limits and specs dont apply.

Because with the 9 degree king pin angle working with a positive caster angle the wheel lowers as it turns back and goes up as it goes forward. Putting 36mm spacers dramatically alters this so the specs have to be altered to suit otherwise you will have a dog.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

sorry should have been more specific, was checked with my road tyres ( 30" and no spacers and normally drive like that to and from trips) would like to get it sorted (or at least improved) so I can run my larger tyres all the time as I am lazy and cannot be assed changing back and forth (or having to take a trailer every where either).
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Sadam_Husain »

I cant really get my head around those 36mm spacers changeing the geometry that much in cornering :oops: :oops: :oops:

The way my head sees it is being about the same as putting a 10" rim on the hub which is 50mm further out minus the difference in the offset from the 8" rim (asumeing the current rims are 8")

I havent noticed anything but an improvement in cornering since I had my offset pushed out 65mm. With the 130mm wider track I find if I hit a corner a bit too fast on the road the truck seems to hold significantly tighter and have less body roll. My truck is a LWB though so cornering charasteristics would be different from a MWB or SWB?
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by pagar »

lwb is better than mine for handling. My cornering issue is better with the big tyres and spacers as it is sort of like increasing the caster because the radius of the individual wheels turning circle relitive to the king pin is increased thus applying more lift to the rim ie more neg camber to both wheels in the stear direction, down side is I have had to remove my nice wood sport steering wheel and put an original bus size one on cause steering is much heavier (anyone know if putting a bigger / higher pressure pump on the power steering works to help?). The issue is more that while driving in a straight line I am running on the outer edge of the left hand wheel and that will also be increased with the spacer etc added and the last thing my wallet needs is to chew through 35" tyres. Wow I sound so techie aye almost like I know what I am talking about... :lol: :lol: almost had myself convinced I know what I am doing.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Bulletproof »

If you look under LVVTA Legal requirements for the road under WHEELS & TYRES 205-00 00 section 2.2 page 15 2.5(1)

You will find the maximum wheel spacer is 20mm . So the 36mm you have are completely illegal for the road

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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by mud_slinger »

if its hard to turn its not a broken c.v joint is it? how much out is your camber? wat does the print out say? i dont think a bent diff housing will cause noticably lots of camber and if it was it would have to a big knock that you should be able to see with the eye it may put your toe out slightly. wer are the tires wearing? inside or outside shoulder? your hub or spindle maybe bent or broken or perhaps a bent shocky? you could wen you put your truck back up for a wheel alignment put a porta power between the bottom of the housing and a chain and push up against the axle, see if that changes the camber at all? there not any wedges between the diff and the leaf springs is there? jus a few ideas. i'll look up your specs tomorro wen i at work and print a copy out.i'll need your readings on your print out to compare tho.
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Re: correcting positive camber

Post by Big »

Bulletproof wrote:If you look under LVVTA Legal requirements for the road under WHEELS & TYRES 205-00 00 section 2.2 page 15 2.5(1)

You will find the maximum wheel spacer is 20mm . So the 36mm you have are completely illegal for the road

Bulletproof

Yes you're correct in saying that for "spacers"BUT if you read the rule "Wheel Adaptor Design and Manufacture" 2.5(4) c (i) it stipulates this
C = Be of a thickness that
(i) Unless the hub assembly donor vehicle is sudstantially heavier than the vehicle to which the adaptors are fitted,provides a maximum spacing of each wheel away from the hub surface of 27mm; and
(ii) Does not exceed the maximum allowable amount of offset specified in 2.2(8) when the wheel adaptor thickness is included within the wheel offset.
Spacers have a max thickness of 20mm and Adaptors have 27mm...You can put an adaptor of the same type of wheel on and get the max of 27mm (adaptors do not rely on the wheel stud to hold them in place as do spacers..cheers
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