differant form of diff lock

[tpft]

2.6L v8? tell me more

who said v?
i was waiting for that um keep that under cover for now, i,m all for sharing, just u know........................

prob with total fluid sustem is heat, to be able too turn it on and off needs circulation, means complicated plumbing
v8 bike runs alky and no cooling so like a 60 sec wonder, fluid drive only has to deal with one engagement not repeated.

motorcycle sourced clutch with outer hub fixed to wheel, inner driving with axle/ cv is going to be best, outer mounted fluid release bearing pushing pressure plate.
bike clutches run approx 3.1 from engine, so 1000cc 170hp bike engine has huge mechincal advanatge over clutch, and has huge surface area compared to car type engine
1.1 as on single 35inch wheel, and run dry such as ducati etc, would handle it.
makes replacement plates readily available too

i think best way is too build 2x units and mount them to back of zuk, which also runs hilux axles (nissan diff head,)
for tesing.

um i run a business 6days, and a small farm, so in my life, besides plans, nothing happens fast.
just in a few months when someone digs this post up and asks how its going.........................

[KiwiBacon]

motorcycle sourced clutch with outer hub fixed to wheel, inner driving with axle/ cv is going to be best, outer mounted fluid release bearing pushing pressure plate.
bike clutches run approx 3.1 from engine, so 1000cc 170hp bike engine has huge mechincal advanatge over clutch, and has huge surface area compared to car type engine
1.1 as on single 35inch wheel, and run dry such as ducati etc, would handle it.
makes replacement plates readily available too

A 1000cc motorbike engine would make maybe 100Nm of torque, multiplied by 3 is only 300Nm. Your wheel torque can be your corner weight multiplied by the wheel radius. Your corner weight could be half the vehicle.
Say 750kg on a 36" tyre.
Radius is 0.46m
Weight = 7,360N
Torque = 3,385 Nm. Roughly 11 times what the motorbike clutch is designed to take.

Motorbike clutches aren't going to do it.

[Moriarty]

How about biggish motor, say, 3 litre or so, driving a hydraulic pump, this in turn driving drybollick motors at each wheel?

ok, you would have to balance the flow, of course, already thought of, OF COURSE!!
But with this, you dispose of the big ugly lump of stuff hanging down in the middle.
the oil motor would be tucked in close to the inside of the rim.
the oil lines are at risk, true, but careful routing and choice of line reduces the chance of damage.
I suppose THIS is illegal for trials to?

oil gets BLOODY hot under these conditions, would need a huge cooler!!!

B

[KiwiBacon]

How about biggish motor, say, 3 litre or so, driving a hydraulic pump, this in turn driving drybollick motors at each wheel?

ok, you would have to balance the flow, of course, already thought of, OF COURSE!!
But with this, you dispose of the big ugly lump of stuff hanging down in the middle.
the oil motor would be tucked in close to the inside of the rim.
the oil lines are at risk, true, but careful routing and choice of line reduces the chance of damage.
I suppose THIS is illegal for trials to?

oil gets BLOODY hot under these conditions, would need a huge cooler!!!

B

You need four pumps to get even flow (one for each wheel) and each pump has to be variable displacement for the best effect (throw away your gearbox).
It would be very expensive, but everything you need to make it is available.

Then you put in balance tubes between each pump to allow some slippage, close them off and it's like difflocks on all four wheels.
You can cut it down to one or two variable displacement pumps and run all the wheel motors in series. But it makes for some complex plumbing if you want to allow slippage for easy turning.

[Flash2004]

That was what I meant by "hydrostatic drive" you'd use final drive and track motor combinations from say a 3 tonne digger or even better a small tracked dumper and use their control valving, hydraulic pump, cooler etc. as well. No need for steering, diffs, etc. and not too complex.

[KiwiBacon]

That was what I meant by "hydrostatic drive" you'd use final drive and track motor combinations from say a 3 tonne digger or even better a small tracked dumper and use their control valving, hydraulic pump, cooler etc. as well. No need for steering, diffs, etc. and not too complex.

Diggers aren't usually hydrostatic drive, they're just spool valves and fixed displacement pumps. Skid steer loaders (Belle etc) have twin variable displacement pumps and hydraulic motors in series on each side.
I don't know what bobcat use, I've never worked on one.

[Moriarty]

That was what I meant by "hydrostatic drive" you'd use final drive and track motor combinations from say a 3 tonne digger or even better a small tracked dumper and use their control valving, hydraulic pump, cooler etc. as well. No need for steering, diffs, etc. and not too complex.

more properly, Gordon, that is drybollick drive. Hydrostatic, as fas as my forgettery remembers uses a fluid coupling.

Thats the stuff, but dump their pumps and motors for more pressure/volumne to give more wheel speed. I am thinking that at times you MAY want go faster then a digger!!!! its the control v/v-ing that I was thinking of, but a senior moment stopped the words from appearing in my forgettery!!!

[tpft]

yamaha sell wr 426 2 wheel drive, with fluid drive to front wheel, is like 30k so only few sold here but one local

say u wouldn,t need gearbox or clutch, bypass all fluid for no drive, bypass a little for each gear.......
however think u would need step up gearbox on each wheel to minimise how much fluid flow is needed.
fluid of course not comressible so 10ml flow still result in movement
torque converter forming the rim is interesting thought
(re-inventing the wheel lol)

its easy (i know) to become best customer of a engineering firm, having little bits and peices made from scratch
ideas are free.......................

[rokhound]

How about biggish motor, say, 3 litre or so, driving a hydraulic pump, this in turn driving drybollick motors at each wheel?

ok, you would have to balance the flow, of course, already thought of, OF COURSE!!
But with this, you dispose of the big ugly lump of stuff hanging down in the middle.
the oil motor would be tucked in close to the inside of the rim.
the oil lines are at risk, true, but careful routing and choice of line reduces the chance of damage.
I suppose THIS is illegal for trials to?

oil gets BLOODY hot under these conditions, would need a huge cooler!!!

B

You need four pumps to get even flow (one for each wheel) and each pump has to be variable displacement for the best effect (throw away your gearbox).
It would be very expensive, but everything you need to make it is available.

Then you put in balance tubes between each pump to allow some slippage, close them off and it's like difflocks on all four wheels.
You can cut it down to one or two variable displacement pumps and run all the wheel motors in series. But it makes for some complex plumbing if you want to allow slippage for easy turning.

That's exactly what i said (if you read between the lines a little)
Are these bits available from wreckers of construction equipment? Or is is more a case of you have to source all the bits new and go from there?.

[tpft]

A 1000cc motorbike engine would make maybe 100Nm of torque, multiplied by 3 is only 300Nm. Your wheel torque can be your corner weight multiplied by the wheel radius. Your corner weight could be half the vehicle.
Say 750kg on a 36" tyre.
Radius is 0.46m
Weight = 7,360N
Torque = 3,385 Nm. Roughly 11 times what the motorbike clutch is designed to take.

Motorbike clutches aren't going to do it.

spring rates in bikes very low, lots contact area, but u have to pull it in with little lever and your fingers,and only have distannce of reach of your fingers to accomplish this

on a fiddle u have both hands if needed,
basically if u have more friction in clutch then what wheel has with surface then wheel spins.........i,e what u said

u love your sums ....3,385 Nm sounds a lot of torque,i guess thats at centre.
you got some secret tyres, that can put this threw one tyre?
explain further please ??

our quads put nearly 70hp threw cvt, and sole clutch is sides of pulley gripping belt, and yet can light tyres on tarmac no probs

[KiwiBacon]

u love your sums ....3,385 Nm sounds a lot of torque,i guess thats at centre.
you got some secret tyres, that can put this threw one tyre?
explain further please ??

Sure. I took the worst case, basically a clean sticky tyre on dry rock. Friction coefficient of 1 which means you can pull your entire weight before the tyres slip.
Normal car tyres on a normal road get about 0.8, dry steel on dry steel is about 0.3, wet ice on wet ice is 0.0000000000something.
You get the idea.

As you already know, double the clamping force on a clutch and you can double the torque it takes. You'll get limited by how strong the thrust bearings are and how much space you've got for actuators or levers.
Putting in more clamp load isn't the problem, but how much you can put on is a big question.

our quads put nearly 70hp threw cvt, and sole clutch is sides of pulley gripping belt, and yet can light tyres on tarmac no probs

My rangie can light up tyres on tarmac at 1400rpm where it's only putting out 100hp. It's 2.3 ton and it's down to gearing. In second gear it's 3:1, diffs are 3.54:1 so the 4 wheels are getting over 10 times the engine torque.

[tpft]

if u boil it down, all i really want to do, is build a clutch type lsd that is operator controlled.


it obvoiusly appeals so how would u accomplish it?

[KiwiBacon]

if u boil it down, all i really want to do, is build a clutch type lsd that is operator controlled.

it obvoiusly appeals so how would u accomplish it?

What I'd do, but it'd need a custom diff housing to fit it in.

Find a diff wit a carrier that extends out past the bearings on one side(or make some extensions). Fit a large plate to that extension, and spline a similar one onto the axle on one side.
Use a thrust bearing and an air or hydraulic cylinder to push the plates together when you need it.

Plates forced together = LSD action, actuator released and it behaves like an open diff.

[cool__bananas]

i was talking to brian today about it, he was telling me about the history of my truck and how back in the day when it was first built it had the same sorta thing as what your talking about, it didnt work because it took too much power and it slowed the truck down when one wheel stoped spinning, but that was ages ago and remember that all this starts to add weight which is bad, and theres not really anything wrong with arbs and fiddle breaks, but if its cheaper it will be awsome, have fun

and have you put 2 1300cc motors together??????

[Moriarty]

if u boil it down, all i really want to do, is build a clutch type lsd that is operator controlled.

it obvoiusly appeals so how would u accomplish it?

What I'd do, but it'd need a custom diff housing to fit it in.

Find a diff wit a carrier that extends out past the bearings on one side(or make some extensions). Fit a large plate to that extension, and spline a similar one onto the axle on one side.
Use a thrust bearing and an air or hydraulic cylinder to push the plates together when you need it.

Plates forced together = LSD action, actuator released and it behaves like an open diff.

Reeeely? what you just described is what I, in my iggerance, would call a manual diff locker.
but what do I know? I am only an old geek!!

seems what the specification calls for is a GRADUAL process that elides smoothly from driving to braking, all with the pull of a lever.
lever left in default (untouched) position = 100% drive
as you pull the lever, the drive becomes less until it reaches 0%, THEN it starts to apply brakes, and the more you pull, the more braking force is applied until you once again, reach the 100% mark.

we are back to describing a bulldozer drive system. How, now, do we achieve THIS without actually HAVING the size and weight of a bully?

[KiwiBacon]

if u boil it down, all i really want to do, is build a clutch type lsd that is operator controlled.

it obvoiusly appeals so how would u accomplish it?

What I'd do, but it'd need a custom diff housing to fit it in.

Find a diff wit a carrier that extends out past the bearings on one side(or make some extensions). Fit a large plate to that extension, and spline a similar one onto the axle on one side.
Use a thrust bearing and an air or hydraulic cylinder to push the plates together when you need it.

Plates forced together = LSD action, actuator released and it behaves like an open diff.

Reeeely? what you just described is what I, in my iggerance, would call a manual diff locker.
but what do I know? I am only an old geek!!

The difference between that and a manual diff lock, is that diff locks are only on or off, usually with locking splines.
By using a clutch and varying the clamp force, you can have it grip as much or as little as you want.

[tpft]

yes exactly right,
hit normal air locker, tyre goes from standstill to whatever rpm engine is running at in a instant hardly ideal for keeping a hold on terra firma.

having diff locked all the time and dis-engaging with fluid motion only when turning or climbing hill etc must be better

[Moriarty]

The difference between that and a manual diff lock, is that diff locks are only on or off, usually with locking splines.
By using a clutch and varying the clamp force, you can have it grip as much or as little as you want.

Yea, verily, thou art correct in all things difflock.
therefore, when the modded LSD is NEARLY fully disengaged, that same actuating lever would have to start applying brakes to that side?
A very interesting problem in timing.

[turoa]

if u boil it down, all i really want to do, is build a clutch type lsd that is operator controlled.

it obvoiusly appeals so how would u accomplish it?

What I'd do, but it'd need a custom diff housing to fit it in.

Find a diff wit a carrier that extends out past the bearings on one side(or make some extensions). Fit a large plate to that extension, and spline a similar one onto the axle on one side.
Use a thrust bearing and an air or hydraulic cylinder to push the plates together when you need it.

Plates forced together = LSD action, actuator released and it behaves like an open diff.

thats been done for years now and used on heaps of trucks. Howat engineering modifies a hilux LSD centre to have a little clylinder which pushes the clutch packs together forcing a nearly fully locked diff. Thats what the walton trucks have

[cool__bananas]

pretty much everyone in trials has them in the front, but they can be done with any diff, not just hilux diffs

[tpft]

thats been done for years now and used on heaps of trucks. Howat engineering modifies a hilux LSD centre to have a little clylinder which pushes the clutch packs together forcing a nearly fully locked diff. Thats what the walton trucks have

oh well, must be good idea then.

thats pretty much where we were ending up.
obvious cylinder would have to spin, so in essence a hydraulic thrust bearing.
which easy enuff to lathe up one small enuff, with a bearing surface.

so someone mentioned a lot of diff rebuilds? this because clutch pack wearing fast?
um u got some sneaky pics??

[skid]

so someone mentioned a lot of diff rebuilds? this because clutch pack wearing fast?
um u got some sneaky pics??

I think thats only with one particular competitor

other competitors that have a hydraulic locker are not blowing them like that other competitor is.


and what cool bananas said about everyone using them, is in my opinion quite some distance from the truth.

in a field of 100 trucks, I would believe there would only be 10%-15% using a hydraulic locker and some of those only have one and use an ARB in the rear.

it used to be a secret a few years ago when only one person was making them, but now that they've been out a while and other kiwi inventors have worked out the method, they are becoming more common.

Cheers

SKID

[cool__bananas]

well most dclass anyway happy skid?

[2MEKE]

it used to be a secret a few years ago when only one person was making them, but now that they've been out a while and other kiwi inventors have worked out the method, they are becoming more common

Who else sells these?
Would they be suitable for on-road use?
What sort of life expectancy could one expect from the clutch pack?

[cool__bananas]

im not sure who else sell them but i dont think that brian howat make them unless its a trials truck,

SKID, doesnt fireman have a hydro locker from a big company? are the road usable?

[tpft]

only kiwi,s would have need for such a difflock, cause only us play about in grass paddocks
so if u want one, u gotta make it, or pay howat to make one for u...........

in normal diff, plenty of room to play with if u get rid of spider gears
but that would only work as per origanal idea, fully locked, pull fiddle to release wheel.

perhaps indepentant rear end, with centre diff and cv,s, however whole lot is fixed and mounted to suspension at ends
like conventional beam axle.
i.e a bent diff
more ground clearance, but without the roll over tendacy of indepentant

[cool__bananas]

terry degraw said that if he built another truck it would probably be independant front for soft ness and solid axle rear for flex

so theres another idea for you, but is your new truck 2 1300cc motors???

[KiwiBacon]

perhaps indepentant rear end, with centre diff and cv,s, however whole lot is fixed and mounted to suspension at ends
like conventional beam axle.
i.e a bent diff
more ground clearance, but without the roll over tendacy of indepentant

With a high enough roll centre it'll feel plenty stable. It'd be "interesting" at high speed, but feel more stable for sideslopes.

[tpft]

, but is your new truck 2 1300cc motors???

well to be honest my new truck so far is 1x 1300 motor/ bunch of pipe and a head full of ideas
138hp per litre, not saying anymore

With a high enough roll centre it'll feel plenty stable. It'd be "interesting" at high speed, but feel more stable for sideslopes.

speed hazards suck, like sway bar dis-connect, solid axle disconnects front and rear would seem a perfect setting for every hazzard.

ok got a list of one off fabricated parts so far, most of beyond my meagre machining capabilities

but suspension?
waltons truck jumps in the air every time he touches the throttle or hits a bump, i know he,s running airbags
but on more then one occasion it seems to be a benfit rather then hinderance.
same with bike trials, rider loading and unloading suspension

origanaly and keeping with the bike theme, as thats my profession i was going to run swingarms and bike shocks and the rising rate linkages of a mx bike one per cnr, shocks are rebuilable, re-vavleable and way more advanced then anything avail
for 4x4,s, plus 11-12 inches of travel if u wish

i know one of the trucks runs cantilever shocks mounted inboard and it seems to work.

but could bounce be good?
mate is building a pro-stock Statesman and imported airbags (way bigger the nz stuff), he can jump the nearly 3ton in the air about a metre with the flick of a switch...................
could be handy, if u acutally airborne over the peg do u still get marked down:lol:

[Flash2004]

Take a look at the axle photos in this thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=653056 here's the drum:

The new Atomic Axle product line from Overkill Engineering takes a radically different approach to solid axle design. The foundation for this new high clearance design is the arched steel housing. The housing is constructed from A656 80,000 PSI tensile strength steel and is equivalent to nearly ½" thick mild steel. The housing weighs in at 110 lbs. Atomic Axles are designed for the professional rock crawling competitor or desert racer, of coarse anyone can purchase the competition units no matter what their needs. All Atomic rear axles feature heavy duty full float axle shaft assemblies. The high angle faceted design provides superior strength and creates a natural truss structure for high impact applications, such as desert racing. The A656 steel housing allows custom suspensions to be welded directly to the housing using standard MIG welding. The axles can be ordered in various widths, axle shafts, and brake configurations depending upon your specific application. Atomic 1 ton axles provide a massive 5" of additional ground clearance over a stock Dana 60. A rig running 40" tires would have 19.5" of ground clearance. The arched housing actually peaks higher outside the center section for a total of 8" clearance over the stock Dana 60 or 22.5" ground clearance with 40" tires. Atomic front and rear axles use a Ford 9" third member housed in a high strength faced center section to preserve proper gear mesh under heavy torque load.. 1480 u-joints transfer power to the wheels. The housing's center section is sealed using standard Ford 9" outer bearings and seals. 35 or 40 spline stub shaft extend into the third member/locker. All axle shafts can be ordered with 35 or 40 spline shafts along with 1480 U-joints. The front axle center section is offset 4" and can be ordered with a driver or passenger side input.