Manukau Winch Challenge

[xj]

Rule 18.2 buggers me up, Im not fabbing a steel or ali top. though I do understand the reasons for it

Good to see rule 20.8 emended in captains rule supplement star date........

And I hear Coxy might be there

Oh well

[coxsy]

xj where did you hear i will be there, haven't thought about it yet , but I'm sure my help in setting up, ect maybe need

[gimmemud]

Could be keen, could be keen..... depends on how many spare parts I've amassed.....

spare pannard - check,
spare LH front axles x 2 - check,
spare RH front axle - check,
spare tie rod - check,
spare driveshaft and axle UJ's - check......

just another day owning a Jeep!

just bring the wife's truck as a back up xj
... she'll love it

[BrentC]

Could be keen, could be keen..... depends on how many spare parts I've amassed.....

spare pannard - check,
spare LH front axles x 2 - check,
spare RH front axle - check,
spare tie rod - check,
spare driveshaft and axle UJ's - check......

just another day owning a Jeep!

Don't worry - I will give a tow back to the pits

[xj]

a mobile parts supplier...... now why didnt i think of that?

[Madaz]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

[xj]

Could be keen, could be keen..... depends on how many spare parts I've amassed.....

spare pannard - check,
spare LH front axles x 2 - check,
spare RH front axle - check,
spare tie rod - check,
spare driveshaft and axle UJ's - check......

just another day owning a Jeep!

Don't worry - I will give a tow back to the pits

Oh thats right, you need to return the favour dontchya?

[BrentC]

Oh thats right, you need to return the favour dontchya?

Oh come on - your wife only gave me a little tug

[BrentC]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

Uhmm don't - probably relates to a higher level of comp, not sure that being an affiliated member makes you competent to operate dangerous machinery - email Nathan Nathenp@manukau4wd.org.nz and see if they will ammend that in the supplement

[PeterVahry]

Hi Brent, don't forget the insurance factor! Unless people are linked to a NZFWDA club then there could be risks to the cover the club is working under. The co-driver shifts a vehicle and it creates a problem.... but they are not linked to the policy... !!!

[xj]

Oh thats right, you need to return the favour dontchya?

Oh come on - your wife only gave me a little tug

Youre quite right, it was only small.....

Anyway.......

[Madaz]

Hi Brent, don't forget the insurance factor! Unless people are linked to a NZFWDA club then there could be risks to the cover the club is working under. The co-driver shifts a vehicle and it creates a problem.... but they are not linked to the policy... !!!

Next thing is that you will need to be affilated to go and spectate

[BrentC]

Hi Brent, don't forget the insurance factor! Unless people are linked to a NZFWDA club then there could be risks to the cover the club is working under. The co-driver shifts a vehicle and it creates a problem.... but they are not linked to the policy... !!!

ah - yes

That came back to me from on high as well.

ie driver and co-driver need to be a 4wd club member affiliated to NZ4WD

[wopass]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

because they are participating in the competition as well and part of the vehicles team.... i think

[NJV6]

Hi Brent, don't forget the insurance factor! Unless people are linked to a NZFWDA club then there could be risks to the cover the club is working under. The co-driver shifts a vehicle and it creates a problem.... but they are not linked to the policy... !!!

Next thing is that you will need to be affilated to go and spectate

Or you could come and compete in the Mainland challenges

[Madaz]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

because they are participating in the competition as well and part of the vehicles team.... i think

Yeah but if they arn't driving it shouldnt be a issue at all?

[wopass]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

because they are participating in the competition as well and part of the vehicles team.... i think

Yeah but if they arn't driving it shouldnt be a issue at all?

still in the vehicle and part of the team so its a big thing for competition insurances etc as far as im aware ?

[jeremy]

Why does you navigator need to be a afilliated club member?

Remember the co-driver can take over driving duties (http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/webrules/7/#rule26.7). NZFWDA affiliation has always been required for both driver and co-driver and I'd imagine this was the original reason.

If your co-driver isn't a member of an NZFWDA club, just get him/her to sign up to united 4wd (http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/clubs/47) which is how the aussies who've competed over here in the past have been NZFWDA affiliated. It's only $28 for a years membership and they are then covered by the NZFWDA insurance (http://www.nzfwda.org.nz/membership/insurance/).

And on a similar note, if you want to compete and don't have the required third party insurance, check out the Auckland 4wd club policy which is open to any NZFWDA member and is only $50 - http://www.auckland4wd.org.nz/visitors/article.asp?article=-1987192883&catpage=1.

[Madaz]

Is this comp only for road legal club trucks?

[DieselBoy]

Is this comp only for road legal club trucks?

(no body get fired up here, i'm just speaking my mind is i see right now, i'm not necessarily correct)

Ya huh, why do i need third party insurance??

Who the hell is going to give my POS non road legal wreck 3rd party insurance for the sole purpose of competeing in a winch challenge??

Why does my vehicle have to be upto a warrant of fitness standard??

The reason why its a non road legal vehicle is for the simple fact the it won't pass a wof as its got all sorts of creative enginering under it, tractor rose joints on the steering, truck ball joints for suspension bushes, cut and welded suspension linkages, wheels that protrude past the edge of the flares, dangerous external projections, no brake lights or indicators, infact the whole machine is custom made from the ground up.

It would be far better to say that the scruitineers will check that brake and steering systems are safe in their opinion, that battery is secure and there is nothing else that they deme unsafe, that the role over prtection, seats and harness are secure and satisfactory and that the over all vehicle is sound for the purpose of competeing in the club class in this particular event.

Ya??

[jeremy]

Who the hell is going to give my POS non road legal wreck 3rd party insurance for the sole purpose of competeing in a winch challenge??

The Auckland 4wd Club third party insurance covers the driver, not a vehicle, so it goes with you no matter who's truck you drive. It only requires that whatever vehicle you do happen to be driving is in a safe condition for use (good brakes, steering, structural integrity etc.). It doesn't require a vehicle to be road legal.

[PeterVahry]

So, the scrutineers say your vehicle is safe to compete in. Things go pear shaped and something fails and there's an injury or death. Who gets scrutinised then? The guy who said it was safe probably and he'll probably have to do that in Court too. That's one good reason for using the WoF system to show that the vehicle met certain standards at a certain time. The WoF man carries insurance too against being blamed for negligence. Take the overall responsibility off the event organisers.

Third Party insurance... who needs it anyway! Well unless you have deep pockets or a nice inheritance coming, then a small investment in Third Party cover could be useful. Cause a fire out there in the countryside and the fire service is entitled by law to recover their fire fighting costs, which these days often involves helicopters etc.

Get it wrong driving back to the camp or pits area and demolish a fence, building, other vehicle etc and bingo... another bill to pay. Get the idea? There are risks out there that organisers need to pass back to competitors.

Peter

[xj]

And if my own private insurer covers me for offroad "incidents" (as outlined above) as well as fire and public liability?

[Madaz]

Is this comp only for road legal club trucks?

(no body get fired up here, i'm just speaking my mind is i see right now, i'm not necessarily correct)

Ya huh, why do i need third party insurance??

Who the hell is going to give my POS non road legal wreck 3rd party insurance for the sole purpose of competeing in a winch challenge??

Why does my vehicle have to be upto a warrant of fitness standard??

The reason why its a non road legal vehicle is for the simple fact the it won't pass a wof as its got all sorts of creative enginering under it, tractor rose joints on the steering, truck ball joints for suspension bushes, cut and welded suspension linkages, wheels that protrude past the edge of the flares, dangerous external projections, no brake lights or indicators, infact the whole machine is custom made from the ground up.

It would be far better to say that the scruitineers will check that brake and steering systems are safe in their opinion, that battery is secure and there is nothing else that they deme unsafe, that the role over prtection, seats and harness are secure and satisfactory and that the over all vehicle is sound for the purpose of competeing in the club class in this particular event.

Ya??

I think the fact that you truck is over 30 years old show how well built and safe it is Dieselboy

The organisers need to be a bit clearer on what kind of trucks they are expecting? i.e. do I need to have a registed vechicle and even if it doesnt need a wof do I still need to have my mods ceritfied?
Also do I need road legal beadlocks? i.e 36 bolt?

[DieselBoy]

I understand the points above, and also understand that the rules and reg's for the club class are still under developement. I have had no involvement in "real" winch challenge events before.

I am just trying to present the perspective of a person who is iterested in the club class in this kind of event, and has alot of friends that are also as enthusiastic, all with similar "club" style vehicles.

I am in no way being disrespectful with what i am going to say......(Just going to show my naivity )

Insurance:

So based on the comments above, and experience from previous events i would technically be insuring my self against my self

I "thought" that the NZ4WDA insurence was for public liability such as fighting a fire?? Based on above comments, it would seem that it covers the club on a club trip and not the individual when operating outside of the cub banner at an event such as this.

I may have it all confused and be missing so important things, but it begs the question....

Can someone explain in simple terms why we need the third party and to also be an NZ4WDA member as well???

Either way, its probably not a big deal, not as big as the vehicle standards anyway

Vehicle Standards:

On events that i have entered previously, a common theme in the entry form has been a section which i as the driver have had to declair that my vehicle is safe and sound to compete in the particular type of event. The scruitineer checks it over it as a double check. By doing it that way, the responsibility/liability rests with the driver of the vehicle, not the scruitineer. Well, to a greater extent atleast.

I don't want to debate the specific in's and out's of the vehicle standards, but don't think that club class should be judged to the same level as WOF standard. If it apears safe and sound and well built, the brakes work, the steering is sound, the driver and passenger safety is correct, the driver has declaired that the vehicle is fit for the event, then it should be enough to have a scruitineer go over it for quick double check that what has been declaired is indeed true. But the liability still lies with the driver.

Is the whole idea of the club class to have a low cost entry level class into the winch challenge sport ???

If so, keep the costs down by keeping the vehicle standards realistic, and other areas sensible. Find ways to make the drivers responsible for them selves and their actions.

[PeterVahry]

Dieselboy, you are right, the NZFWDA policy does cover Rural and Forest Fire and if the club hosting the event is NZFWDA affiliated, they are indemnified. If you are a NZFWDA member too, then that cover extends to you when you are participating in an activity organised/ hosted by a NZFWDA club. That's why it is required that participants are linked to a NZFWDA club.

If that system was not applied and a non-NZFWDA person caused a claim on the event then you can bet your bottom dollar that the insurers would be looking to offset their loss by following up on that person.

The NZFWDA insurance does apply to members when they are involved in activities with their own or another NZFWDA club, if that activity is recognised by that club. (No let's go up here, oops.... oh well we'll say it was a club trip!)

'Self insurance' is fine if the only risk is to your own property but it rarely is. As Jeremy pointed out there are options at less than a tank of fuel in cost, that do give others the peace of mind that their property is protected too.

The 'self scrutineer' is a direction that 4x4 Challenges have been advocating for a while, along with the use of log books for the vehicles to allow easy recognition of changes to vehicles etc.
The idea is not to 'scrutineer' but to simply 'audit' the vehicle to see if it still complies with the log book statements.

While the idea of the driver signs that they accept liability for everything while they are competing again sounds fine, the way our laws look at things is not so simple and if there's a death or other incident, then everyone is dragged into it. Having organised events it can be rather nerve wracking watching drivers take risks as that red mist takes over and you are thinking.... what do I tell the relatives and how many days/weeks will be taken up explaining to the Police, the Coroner and the Courts?

Organisers just have to apply risk management now, as it's not just about competitors anymore.

Fortunately there are still people who are willing to put the time in to do that event organising and accept some risk to their own livelyhood and they don't get a lot of thanks.

I hope I'm helping to explain why it's not so easy to just accept that enthusiastic competitors can turn up and have a go.

Peter

[DieselBoy]

Thanks for the claification, it makes sense, and i realise that our law's do not favour event organisers!!!!!

So in terms of the event, 3rd party cover is deemed as being either NZ4wda affiliated, or being covered under the Auckland 4WD club policy, as per Jeremys comment:

The Auckland 4wd Club third party insurance covers the driver, not a vehicle, so it goes with you no matter who's truck you drive. It only requires that whatever vehicle you do happen to be driving is in a safe condition for use (good brakes, steering, structural integrity etc.). It doesn't require a vehicle to be road legal.

I fully understand that it simply can't be a "Run what you brung " type event, but i'm hoping that vehicle expectations are going to be more senible in the club classes of the future in that WOF standard club class vehicles are unrealistic.

I guess what i am personally hoping for is that you can run the same kind of vehicle that you would run at say the Laurie Sanson Fun Trial Series, in the club class for these events.

I just don't think this rule has any place in the club class:


2: WOF not required, but must be up to WOF standard of mechanical integrity

Should be reworded to :

Vehicles must display a high standard of mechanical integrity, with attention to brakes, steering and occupant safety.

[haynzy]

Taking a leaf from the mainland challenges rule book, clubclass vehicles must have a current wof and reg, but they do run an outlaw class for "illegal vehicles" but again they must pass a safety inspection. Without the wof rule theres nothing stopping someone entrting a d class trails truck and contradicting the whole idea of a second winch challenge class.
my 2$ over

[PeterVahry]

The NZFWDA cover could possibly be seen as a de-facto Third Party cover but that's not it's intention and it should not be used in that manner. The 'member to member' factor comes into play and unless specifically written out, as it is in the Auckland Club's policy, then other participants or NZFWDA members involved, are still at risk.

When you are actually on a competition 'stage' then you don't have any cover from either policy. The club does however have cover for the consequences of an incident where a competing vehicle leaves the competition stage and , for example, demolishes a fence line. In that case the NZFWDA is 'carrying the can' for the competitors because it also is protecting the organisers.

Fortunately so far these arguments have been untested by claims and have only been discussed with the NZFWDA brokers and other insurers. Again we are aiming for 'best practice' in how we apply the cover that we've negotiated.

Peter

[xj]

When you are actually on a competition 'stage' then you don't have any cover from either policy. Peter

So why then the requirement to be club affiliated for the resaons of NZFWDA insurance for the headlined competitive event? If the NZFWDA insurance doesnt cover ya, why the requirement?

I musta missed the boat somewhere here.