whats the "ideal" turbo for the safari.

[BEAUTGQ]

yea i alredy had the pump rebuilt last year before i looked at turboing so didnt get a bigger plunger etc so will just turn fuel up a bit i think. will go a small then i think cheers guys

[flyingbrick]

So go for the "small" wheel if you are not wanting to play with your diesel pump.

for those of us who are noobs- what gets done to the pump when its modified? Just increased flow? can this be done simply by using a FPR?

I spy a 16G BIG wheel turbo for a nice price and am severely tempted. I have a habbit of buying things which are too big to be practical.
I'm a little guy. Safe to call it compensating.

-Nathan

[KiwiBacon]

So go for the "small" wheel if you are not wanting to play with your diesel pump.

for those of us who are noobs- what gets done to the pump when its modified? Just increased flow? can this be done simply by using a FPR?

I spy a 16G BIG wheel turbo for a nice price and am severely tempted. I have a habbit of buying things which are too big to be practical.
I'm a little guy. Safe to call it compensating.

-Nathan

Bigger plungers in the fuel pump I expect. But a mates dad's safari with aftermarket turbo and standard but tweaked pump was putting out about 180hp. So there's a bit of room to play.

[Shane]

for those of us who are noobs- what gets done to the pump when its modified? Just increased flow? can this be done simply by using a FPR?



-Nathan

most pumps get rebuilt to std specs,but they can be modded for more flow but this does cost quite a bit and normal they mod the injectors also.can get up to 200rwkw with modded pump with full on set up.

std pump is good for 100-110kw at the wheels(with very good set up)the torque on a 100kw set up would be pretty high which is what you wont,if you wont more power than that its time to mod pump.

Shane

[GQTROL]

for those of us who are noobs- what gets done to the pump when its modified? Just increased flow? can this be done simply by using a FPR?
-Nathan

Bigger diameter head and rotor element in the pump, more than doubles the amount of fuel delivery (from approx 57cc's of fuel per 1000 shots to 120 odd cc's depending on the level of upgrade). Basically, you can dump in twice the amount of fuel than standard within the same timing specs, so you're not stretching the timing envelope which would normally result in excess fuel / black smoke and overheating etc. You can alter the govenor and cam plate too if you want, plus modify the aneroid with a lighter spring and / or sharper ramp-up so it comes in alot more aggresively.

Up the breaking pressure of the injectors to 130-140 atmosph. while you're there. There are other injector nozzles and springs avail from Aussie, but I'm not aware of anyone here using them.

[KiwiBacon]

for those of us who are noobs- what gets done to the pump when its modified? Just increased flow? can this be done simply by using a FPR?
-Nathan

Bigger diameter head and rotor element in the pump, more than doubles the amount of fuel delivery (from approx 57cc's of fuel per 1000 shots to 120 odd cc's depending on the level of upgrade). Basically, you can dump in twice the amount of fuel than standard within the same timing specs, so you're not stretching the timing envelope which would normally result in excess fuel / black smoke and overheating etc. You can alter the govenor and cam plate too if you want, plus modify the aneroid with a lighter spring and / or sharper ramp-up so it comes in alot more aggresively.

Up the breaking pressure of the injectors to 130-140 atmosph. while you're there. There are other injector nozzles and springs avail from Aussie, but I'm not aware of anyone here using them.

What volume (cc's per thousand shots) do the stock pumps put out?
The cummins rotary VE pumps can put out about 120cc per thousand (maximum) which is the same as the bosch/zexel/kiki A type inline pump on my Isuzu.
If you can burn 120cc per thousand shots cleanly then you're up around 600Nm on a direct injection engine, probably 550Nm on an indirect injection.
Power depends how fast you can spin it.

[GQTROL]

What volume (cc's per thousand shots) do the stock pumps put out?
The cummins rotary VE pumps can put out about 120cc per thousand (maximum) which is the same as the bosch/zexel/kiki A type inline pump on my Isuzu.
If you can burn 120cc per thousand shots cleanly then you're up around 600Nm on a direct injection engine, probably 550Nm on an indirect injection.
Power depends how fast you can spin it.

57 cc's from a standard pump. Depending on the turbo setup, most can't use anything above 80-90 cc's, mine is 110-115 cc's from memory, Aaron Smythe's race truck was (not sure what it is now) over 120 cc's. 600Nm is achievable and a genuine 800Nm seems to be the absolute upper limit, although I'd be interested if anyone is actually hitting that amount of torque as I would be a little suspicious of their figures if they were.

[KiwiBacon]

57 cc's from a standard pump. Depending on the turbo setup, most can't use anything above 80-90 cc's, mine is 110-115 cc's from memory, Aaron Smythe's race truck was (not sure what it is now) over 120 cc's. 600Nm is achievable and a genuine 800Nm seems to be the absolute upper limit, although I'd be interested if anyone is actually hitting that amount of torque as I would be a little suspicious of their figures if they were.

So 57cc is what the non-turbo pump is adjusted to?
If so then 57cc/1000 shots to deliver 265Nm gives a BSFC of 240 g/kwh which would be about right for an idi diesel.

Are some of these inline and some VE?

[GQTROL]

So 57cc is what the non-turbo pump is adjusted to?
If so then 57cc/1000 shots to deliver 265Nm gives a BSFC of 240 g/kwh which would be about right for an idi diesel.

Are some of these inline and some VE?

Yup. Its been a few years since I was last in a fuel room, but I'm positive those were the specs.

That figure applies to VE, but there shouldn't be anything stopping you achieving similar results from an inline, as same principles apply, just the method differs. In some instances the inline should be better as its more 'tunable' i.e. to each each injector, although this may not be the case in practice.

[darinz]

Aaron is building a pump (and ijectors)for one of my support crew at present and we're then looking at a bigger turbo for it. Obviously it will be a BB turbo. Have you done any research on specifics to suit this? Any ideas of lbs of air required?
ie If using 120+cc of fuel, how much air would be required to keep air/fuel ratio correct?

Also the head has been ported with 28% increased flow, custom plenum, I/C, cam, etc.

This is his work truck to so not going to be raced. He is just doing it for fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And to piss off a few boy racers!

[KiwiBacon]

Just reworking my calculations now.

To burn 120cc/thousand shots cleanly I reckon you need 27psi boost at the manifold.

Here are the assumptions:
A/F ratio 20:1 (smoke limit is 18:1 so this is clean burn)
BSFC 240 g/kwh
VE = 80%
compressor efficiency = 60%
intercooler effectiveness = 60%
air inlet temp = 20C
ambient pressure = 101.3kPa

Intermediate results
compressor outlet temp 190C
intercooler outlet temp 88C

[KiwiBacon]

If you want the same results from a direct injection engine of the same capacity (like a 1HD-T) then it changes dramatically.

To burn 120cc/thousand shots cleanly I reckon you need 21psi boost at the manifold.

Here are the assumptions:
A/F ratio 20:1 (smoke limit is 18:1 so this is clean burn)
BSFC 210 g/kwh
VE = 80%
compressor efficiency = 60%
intercooler effectiveness = 60%
air inlet temp = 20C
ambient pressure = 101.3kPa

Intermediate results
compressor outlet temp 160C
intercooler outlet temp 76C

[GQTROL]

When I did the figures at the time for the race truck, I had A/F ratio at 18-18.5:1 and worked on 65% turbo effic which was probably a bit optimistic. No intercooler, so intake temps were almost 200°C at 28psi, hence why 2 engines lasted 2 weeks each.

If you run the figures again using 80-90 cc's of fuel, A/F ratio 20:1, 14-16psi boost, modest intercooling etc, it should be sweet. I think thats why this more modest upgrade is more appropriate for most guys as you get decent performance, no real reduction in engine life and without any noticable black smoke.

[KiwiBacon]

When I did the figures at the time for the race truck, I had A/F ratio at 18-18.5:1 and worked on 65% turbo effic which was probably a bit optimistic. No intercooler, so intake temps were almost 200°C at 28psi, hence why 2 engines lasted 2 weeks each.

If you run the figures again using 80-90 cc's of fuel, A/F ratio 20:1, 14-16psi boost, modest intercooling etc, it should be sweet. I think thats why this more modest upgrade is more appropriate for most guys as you get decent performance, no real reduction in engine life and without any noticable black smoke.

Yeah that's probably the first stop for a bolt on turbo without intercooler.
I get 12psi to deliver enough air for 90 cc/1000 shots at 18.5:1 which is starting to smoke unless everything is in excellent health.

At 15psi and 90cc the A/F ratio works out to just under 20:1

BTW predicted torque is about 365Nm.

All these numbers make sense, so I'm gonna declare my mathematical marvel correct.

[GQTROL]

What formula's are you using / have you derived?

I used some that I downloaded years ago, but intercooler and turbo temps for efficiencies etc were all in °F so is a pain in the butt to keep converting back to °C.

[KiwiBacon]

What formula's are you using / have you derived?

I used some that I downloaded years ago, but intercooler and turbo temps for efficiencies etc were all in °F so is a pain in the butt to keep converting back to °C.

I'm using the whole run of your average thermodynamics book for this one.
The turbo temperature rise is adiabatic compression, I modify the temperature rise based on the compressor efficiency (lower efficiency = bigger temp rise) and use the ideal gas law to bring out the density at that point.
Comparing that to the ideal gas law density at the inlet and it gives an density ratio that the turbo has created.
The density ratio is they key, a ratio of 2 means you've got twice the air as a non-turbo motor and can burn twice the fuel. 15psi with no intercooler gives you around 1.6

For the fuel loadings I'm using a typical BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) number for that type of engine to relate the amount of fuel burnt to the power produced. BSFC is measured engine efficiency. The best road-going diesel is the VW 1.9TDi which uses 197g of diesel for every kwh at peak efficiency (close to max load at max torque revs), a good direct injection diesel is 210g/kwh, an indirect injection diesel I'm using 240g/kwh for the TD42, some will be closer to 300.

From there it's simply maths working through the density and volumes of everything to get back to air and fuel volumes and their ratios.
It's been a work in progress for quite some time.

[GQTROL]

Sounds good alright. What turbo / intercooler efficiencies do you work on? I've just used figures from manufacturers, but imagine their own figures would be a little optimistic compared to real-world situations, so my numbers have a bit of room to move I would suspect.

[darinz]

Sweet that is somewhere along what we thought but that was done from obsevations and experience without all the maths. Nice to know we were on the right track even if it was just a half educated guess.

Now time to look at some compressor maps and sort that side of it out.

Also, theoritically 120cc/1000 at 27psi would be what flywheel hp assuming intake temps etc are not a limiting factor?

[KiwiBacon]

Sounds good alright. What turbo / intercooler efficiencies do you work on? I've just used figures from manufacturers, but imagine their own figures would be a little optimistic compared to real-world situations, so my numbers have a bit of room to move I would suspect.

For the above I used 65% for the turbo compressor, I've run temperature probes in my inlet tract before and the T25 turbo in good condition had outlet temps agreeing with the 70% that the map suggested. But unless you've hit the sweet-spot for that turbo 60% is a lot more realistic.

I run 60% for an intercooler which IMO is a good front mount with plenty of air flow. Even a small factory intercooler should surpass 40%. It's really easy to get the first few degrees out and very difficult to get the last. I haven't fitted a decent intercooler to my truck yet, too many other things on the go. I've got an air/water which has been sitting in the box for two years now.

All these figures can be easily changed on the spreadsheet.

[KiwiBacon]

Sweet that is somewhere along what we thought but that was done from obsevations and experience without all the maths. Nice to know we were on the right track even if it was just a half educated guess.

Now time to look at some compressor maps and sort that side of it out.

Also, theoritically 120cc/1000 at 27psi would be what flywheel hp assuming intake temps etc are not a limiting factor?

For hp you need an rpm. As revs rise the efficiency drops, if you ran a BSFC of 270 g/kwh at 3500rpm then 120cc/1000 shots would give you 159kW.
If your efficiency dropped so your BSFC went to 300g/kwh then you'd only get 143kw.

The reasons diesels start to lose efficiency fast at higher revs isn't just airflow, your fuel burns at a set rate and advancing the timing helps but doesn't cure it completely. Advancing the timing that far means you're charring more fuel which goes out the exhaust as soot instead of being burnt cleanly etc.

[GQTROL]

Also, theoritically 120cc/1000 at 27psi would be what flywheel hp assuming intake temps etc are not a limiting factor?

Theoretically, 250-300HP at the fly would be possible. In reality it would be something quite different due to various restrictions i.e. aircleaner size etc limiting what cfm you can flow and therefore what fuel you can burn etc.

[darinz]

Thanks guys. We'll work on the upper levels as we are optomistic!!

Mitch, I hear you're going for a run in a couple of weeks! Been training much as in a Hilux you'll be out quite abit!!

[KiwiBacon]

Okay guys, small mistake in my fuel usage predictions.
It was setup for a 4 cyl diesel, so for a 6 cyl divide the fuel volumes I quoted by 1.5.

Example, where I said 120cc/1000 shots, a 6 cyl would be injecting 80 cc/1000 shots. Same volume of fuel per crank revolution but spread over three bangs instead of two.

[darinz]

The pumps we are using (or getting built) are doing 120cc so what will that make with your formulas?

[KiwiBacon]

The pumps we are using (or getting built) are doing 120cc so what will that make with your formulas?

Ludicrous speed.

If the planets align then you'll be getting over 700Nm torque at peak. Maybe 300kw at 5000rpm but you'll be needing almost 60psi boost.
Intercooler inlet temps will be pushing 300C and you'll probably need more boost to keep EGT's down.

Don't get excited yet, this is only a spreadsheet, not a real vehicle.

[darinz]

There are TD42's out there with 200RWKW so that sort of comes close. Interesting to see how the maths line up with real vehicles. Not saying that dyno figures are real as we all know how unreliable they but an interesting discussion and some figures that bring up questions about some claims. Not to mention those that are claiming 1000nm as well!

[BEAUTGQ]

just ordering my extractor flange plate do you guys reken i need this out of 10mm or 16mm mild steel? $40 difference between the two.

[KiwiBacon]

just ordering my extractor flange plate do you guys reken i need this out of 10mm or 16mm mild steel? $40 difference between the two.

10 is heaps for the finished thickness, I'd go for 12mm to allow some machining to flatten the face.

[BEAUTGQ]

Ordered flange in 10mm on its way up to the big smoke from chch. Have any of you guys used the gauges made by pro sport the ones on www.drivenperformance.co.nz under gauges and the pro series. looking at getting a egt gauge and matching boost do you guys reken theyd be ok? or the autogauge not autometer ones on trademe. both types are reasonably cheap dont know whether to save on money by getting one off either of these or get autometer (prob 500 for both)

Cheers Jared

[gary_in_nz]

actually just a slight off topic, but for 200 rwkw what sort of mods and coin goes into those trucks?? just curious as wondering if it would be cheaper to slap and ls1 in and get 300 rwkws with little mods (custome igntion mapping, extractors, cams and valves etc...)??????