steering skittish at speed and pulling right when braking

[Heath]

Got the suspension bushed replaced a couple of weeks ago and have noticed that when braking (from highway speeds) the vehicle pulls right (untill speed drops) then straightens up. Not sure if this is due to the nose dropping when braking (changing steering angles?) or what. Also noticed that it feels skittish when traveling at highway speeds.

Was fine before the bushes were changed and a wheel alignment was done. Drove like it was glued to the road before, now its like I am driving in really gusty winds and moves all over the place. I have a long trip coming up and want it sorted (driving it at the moment is tiring) and the wife said she doesnt want to drive it if its like this...

I didnt get a copy of the figures from the alignment, but it does seem to be related.

When I had the alignment done I had them wind the wheels forwards atouch in nthe guards to give me a little more space from the rear of the wheel arches. Would this have mucked things up so I have issues like this.

Is there a trick to setting up an IFS 96 Prado's alignment? amybe they just applied normal car logic and its wrong. Dont know but I need to be armed before I go in and get them to check it. I dont want to pay twice for a job if I can avoid it.

[Heath]

I recall they hasd to remove the steering rack to access the bush mounts. I wonder if they are loose? Taht would give vague steering, but I dont know about the steering pulling right under brakes.

It's like when I lifted my hilux and zook - bump steer. When the front end compressed the steering geometry changed and I changed direction...

[rokhound]

did they replace the rack bushes as well? These are a high wear item in 90 series playdohs

[Heath]

did they replace the rack bushes as well? These are a high wear item in 90 series playdohs

Nah just had a WoF (after the alignment) too so got me buggered. I'm picking the alignment is not right or the bolts for the rack are loose or the bushes failed after the WoF and work was done on it. You'd think they would have picked up on a worn set of bushes when they removed it (extra money they could charge me) and replaced it, or the WoF guys would have failed it on the steering for faulty bushes.

Seems funny that it failed after the WoF and with the shiney looking tyres I thought maybe they had got some silicon shit on the disks, but that wouldnt account for the twitchy steering.

Checked tyre pressures and they are all good (37psi, have been for a while so thats not it). They did rotate the tyres when they had them off for the service, but that shouldnt affect things. Should it?

[flyingbrick]

I wonder if they changed the amount of caster by moving the wheels forwards? but surely they wouldn't have left it like that after seeing the bad numbers during the alignment

[mudbugga]

have noticed that when braking (from highway speeds) the vehicle pulls right (untill speed drops) then straightens up.

It could quite likely have a seized brake caliper if it's pulling under braking. Would make sense being more noticeable at speed. They seem to be very prone to it if they do a bit of water crossings etc.

It could just be coincedence that it was noticed after the W/A but it wouldn't hurt to get it checked out again.
What's more important - your life or the cost of a w/a?

Are you in Rolly yet?
PM me if you are - I can arrange something through work (Toyota Tech) if you want.

[Heath]

Still in Auckland at the moment and have a W/A booked for Wed.

Resignation is typed and ready to sign in the next day or so...

Rolly is about 6 weeks away for me.

[Heath]

Popped into Bridgestone and they threw it on their machine for a quick look (they did the last one and it was perfect).

Most things are fine but the toe in was 2 degrees positive so wheels were pointing away from each other instead of together at the front (or is that negative? ). That will hopefully answer the question of it wandering while driving at speed. Will get it fixed at the place that did the W/A and if they cant/wont do it I will ask for my money back and go to Bridgestone on Hillside. I didnt get it done there because I had shocks and bushes replaced (they dont do them at bridgestone).

The vehicle veering right under brakes looks to be a brakes issue (seperate) and only appeared after the service so after my test drive if it still pulls I will be popping into my service guys for a ... chat. I wonder if while the wheels were off they either got something on the brake disks (which contaminated the pads) or when they sprayed the "shiney new wet look" wheel shit on they got it on the disks (which then contaminated the pads).

Am I right in assuming that if it pulls right the left side is the issue? That is, the left side is now not pulling up as well (due to contaminated pads) so the brakes are unbalanced, causing the side with more braking effect to pull the car over to that side.

[Heath]

So I went in for my W/A and mentioned the Toe in was off and they threw it on the hoist. After an hour they had it adjusted. Said it was weird because they needed all the adjustment to get there too. Took it for a test drive and then threw it back on another hoist with a different machine, where they checked it and it was off again. Got someoneelse to check the figures and redo the W/A. Test drive and its out again, up again and redo W/A. hwile checking things after the W/A was done they noticed a buggered lower ball joint (5-8mm of vertical movement). so that was replaced. W/A done again and after a short drive... you guessed it W/A was out again. That was my morning stuffed (4 hours I waited, it was just a simple W/A after all).

Now I never had any problems before (this is a reputable W/A place) the front bushes were replaced and now its a bag of shit to drive (the wife doesnt want to travel in it at the moment). I am slightly amused that this ball joint wasnt picked up when the bushes were replaced (they removed the arms to press them out I believe) and as I just had a WoF a few days after the Bushes were done it was missed then as well. Are these things hard to pick up or do they fail suddenly?

The Toe in figures change all the time and when I brake something must move which makes the car steer to the right.

Anyone have any ideas what could be causing this because this may end up costing me some coin to fix and I dont want to spend anything (was saving for tyres) and already I am down $250 for a ball joint and install (thats the spare tyre gone).

They want the wagon for a whole day so they can pull the front off again and have a look at everything (in case the bushes failed or what ever) Of course if it was their fault I will never know as they will hide anything and just tell me something else was stuffed. Maybe they won't, I dont know (playing devils advocate here) I can just see the tyre fund evaporating.

I guess its a safety thing, but it's still hard to swallow...

[firestonecruiser]

ive been doing alignments for the last ten years, vehicle should be road tested first, then up on hoist. front of vehicle then should be raised to check wheel bearings, inner and outer tierod ends, upper and lower kingpins etc. its also advised once adjustments are done the vehicle is pulled down at the front, this is called jounce and rebound. once this is done the toe readings should go to where they set them. do you have a copy of ya spec sheet. post it up n ill will have a peek at it.

cheers jono

[Heath]

Got no sheets. They couldn't get a final one so didnt give it to me.

It's got me buggered as I watched them do them all (didnt see them check stuff though, but they did that last time and they mentioned using a bar to try and move the bushes).

From the Bridgestone place they showed me the figures on the screen (their printer ran out of ink - just my luck). All the figures we good apart from the toe in, which is what keeps changing at the moment.

To be honest it's driving like it's in sand at the moment. I guess if the wheels are pointing outwards it will be trying to pull in two directions. Good thing my crappy tyres are on the front but for a couple of days it should be fine.

Might need to find some half worn 265/75/16 KL71's though to replace the front if it keeps doing this.

What really worries me is this vehicle just got a WoF and flew through.

[firestonecruiser]

you will get a slight variation on toe readings. from memory they should be toeing in about 1mm. that is why jounce and rebound is critical. once this is done and suspension settles the toe readings should be the same if not they should redo toe until it is right.

cheers jono.

[mud_slinger]

the pull you experience when you brake would be a seized calliper on the left front.

In regards to your alignment you can expect variations in the readings after the w/a cameras are removed and the vehicle test driven as when the cameras are put back on its not in exactly the same spot they were on previous on that rim.But in saying that 2 degrees i sa hell of a lot of toe. A rim is not buckled is it? there is no play at all in steering setup on any ball joints?
something else they could do is put the camera on and spin the wheel so they can get a reading of wheel runout which can give accurate readings and poss find out if wheel buckled etc.

How much difference is there between the castor on the left and the right? how is camber and the KPI angle digit wise?

Wonder when their machine was last callibrated?

When you get to chch and its still not good, bring it into my store and we'll chuck it up and see what we can do. If you get a print out which they should give you post it up and i'll go over it and have a look see at the figures

[Heath]

Yeah I had the calipers checked only a few weeks ago as part of the service. Seems weird that all of a sudden I get crappy toe measurements and a caliper go at the same time. I'm picking a bush/something has failed and when I accelerator brake that bush compresses which alters the toe even more causing that wheel to steer the wagon to the right (during a drive it will move about and alter the settings). I would hope the steering ball joints are good (replaced two last year, the rack was recond before I got it) and it just got a WoF so I'll be pissed if they missed that too.

When I lift off the gas after hard acceleration it also swings left slightly which leads me to believe it is somewhere in the linkages/bushes or steering shit.

But having said that when the tracking / alignment issue is sorted if it still pulls when I brake, I will be getting the brakes rechecked. (there goes the dump pipe fund too...)

[Heath]

Found a nice deserted road to play on.

If I hold the wheel dead centre and:

Accelerate hard it pulls to the right.
If I push in the clutch it pulls left.
If I brake it pulls right.

Coasting down a hill in neutral the steering wheel eventually returns to centre where it should be and if I apply acceleration slowly it gradually drifts to right (if I steer to keep the wagon staright I can get up to 10-15 degrees of left offset on the steering wheel.

It feels like its labouring when accelarating, it never used to, but I guess thats the toe in/out or whatever.

And cornering is interesting too.

Not enjoying this and want it fixed. I can only imagine what its doing to my front tyres.

Once the front is sorted I will get the brakes rechecked just to make sure.

I hope this isnt going to cost me a fortune but I think it will (doesnt it always )

[meatc]

Based on above test I would be looking at the front drive, wheel bearings, cvs, even diff head. Sounds to me like you are getting some drive and then load on one side or the other hence the differnce whe coasting and clutch in.

Oh thats assuming that prados are full time 4wd. If its part time check that its not actually in 4wd. My courier pulls right in 4wd when accelerating.

[Heath]

Jacked the front up yesterday.

Had a good poke around and used a bar to try and get things to move. All seemed okay but the left front wheel had a slight bit of movement (brg maybe). Spun everything and both sides seem normal. No additional drag. Couldnt check the brakes (on my own) but will figure out how to do it (jack centre up and block on the brake maybe), then I can feel for differing amounts of braking.

Although just thinking after all this if the brakes were causing it to veer right under acceleration then one side would be sticky all the time not just on braking and it would pull right all the time not just under brake and accel.

I even had the tyres rotated back to how they were just in case - no difference.

Someone even suggested maybe the put the arms on the wrong sides. I never had tyre rub before but now the passenger side rubs on the front inner guard.

Is it possible the arms are in on the wrong sides? That would throw all the geometry out wouldnt it? I have to find a picture of one from the factory...

To be honest I have run out of ideas.

It was fine with stuffed lower control arm bushes, a stuffed lower ball joint and buggered struts. Now they are replaced with new and it drives like a P.O.S.

I am concerned that the suspension place have no ideas and they want it for the day to pull apart and see what's what. I am worried that the cost of them "playing" might get stupid and I will still have problems.

To be honest I am a bit pissed at the cost of the Ball joint replacement (over $230), it's 4 bolts, a nut then a whack with a fork to pop the joint, bolt the new one in and it's doen (should take 30 mins tops with a workshop) I got charged 1.5 hours.

Not sure I want them to milk me as some sort of cash cow, but what are my options here, they "fixed it" and now its stuffed.

What can I do?

Can I demand they repair whatever they stuffed? Can I demand that they do the work for nothing?

[Heath]

I went out with a torch to check they were on the right sides . I figured what the hell, maybe...

Nah, they're right.

Did have a look at the camber bolts (or whatever they are - the adjuster ones) and they are all over the place. I would have thought they would be symetrical (or a mirror image), but nope all in different spots. I see they work on an offset cam/washer between two plates. If they arent seated snuggly (touching both sides of the large offset washer thingee) between the plates/lips they push/pull against couldnt that induce some movement as they moved in and out (between the stops)?

Mine has gaps on the pass side front. Couldnt see anymore as my torch died.

I swear my neighbours are probably scared of the nut job they have nextdoor. Outside, mumbling to himself and crawling around under his car in the dark...

[flyingbrick]

hey sorry if this has been covered... really dumb idea but... your tires aint directionals are they?

Check your radius arm bushes where they go into the chassis. check they are tight and the nuts holding both radius arms in place are screwed onto the thread a smiliar amount.

If alllll out fails- I'd try swapping your left shock with your right shock and taking it for a spin.

[rokhound]

Check your radius arm bushes where they go into the chassis. check they are tight and the nuts holding both radius arms in place are screwed onto the thread a smiliar amount.

If alllll out fails- I'd try swapping your left shock with your right shock and taking it for a spin.

None of that is applicable as this is on a 90 series Playdoh which is double A arm front supported on a coil over spring setup.

I still think you need to look harder at the steering rack bushes. The other issue I have found with mine is the pulsating brake pedal due to disc runout. Replaced rotors and it made bugger all difference.

[flyingbrick]

must be the drugs im on was sure i was in the nissan section.

[Heath]

Its in the shop today and they are going to tear it all down again and start from scratch. Its a robust system and should be up for years of abuse (let alone highway stuff) so it has them stuffed too. I guess I'll find out what is what soon enough.

They have a suspicion that a bush has failed/torn and its causing things to "float" around but I do think the steering box etc which they removed might have some thing to do with it as well. I cant get over the feeling its something to do with the syspension movement though. When you brake the front compresses a bit and when you accelerate it climbs a bit, which must alter the angles of the steering, but it should be consistant for both sides so cancel each other out.

Time will tell I guess.

[Heath]

So update time.

They pulled the front apart completely (again) and removed the bushes from the arms.

The bushes arent toyota ones and although they are listed as a direct replacement there appears to be a slight difference in length of the inner sleeve (a gnat's togger difference) so they did something (not sure what but it may have been making the cam adjuster slightly shorter to match) so they bind properly when done up tight (wasnt holding before).

The also noted the new bushes have voids manufactured into the rubber, so they lined them up evenly in both arms (and within each arm) to remove any unpredictable movement.

They checked the steering rack mounts and they are like new (nolothane ones) so thats sweet.

All bolted up and aligned, they test drove it and it seems fine. I have driven it a bit and its a lot better, but I'll reserve judgement until its been okay for a few weeks.

Cost me nothing as it was all part of the service.

I've got a copy of the W/A figures too so I'll get them checked in a few weeks at another place, but I noticed I had 2.2MM positive toe (pretty sure that's toe out) shouldnt it be a negative number (slight toe in)?

So we wait and see.

[firestonecruiser]

positive is toe in, negative is toe out. should be running with toe in. as vehicle gathers speed the front wheels force out, that is why must vehicle manufactures have toe in. in saying that to much toe in causes vehicles to wander plus you get tyre scrub generally on outside shoulders. toe out will wear inside shoulder as will negative camber.

cheers jono.

[Sadam_Husain]

Sometimes its cheaper to just sell shit and buy another one than try and work out whats wrong with it?

[Heath]

Sometimes its cheaper to just sell shit and buy another one than try and work out whats wrong with it?

Amen to that.

I was tempted to go for a drive with a small tank of petrol and have an ...accident.

Still might.

[Heath]

Been doing alittle home work and because this is a full time 4wd they put toe out. As the front wheels pull forwards they pull the toe closer to 0 (straight ahead). Sounded plausible...

Been driving for a week now and it seems fine. been a bit windy to be able to hand on heart say its smooth but its not bad. No diving right (or left) with heavy braking, no pulling right or left with acceleration / deceleration.

So fingers crossed it might be okay. wil give it a few more days of thrashing before I am convinced.

[Heath]

So been driving it for a bit longer and it appears the W/A hasnt held again.

Have booked it in to have the bushes removed and have toyota ones fitted. The replacement bushes apparently have voids in them to make them more compliant/flexible, but I am picking when I hit the brakes or accelerate hard the amount of movement is making the front skittish. The Toyota ones have no voids. At $183 each not cheap but I am over this problem now and I hope the place I have been dealing with will come to the party with a refund on the others so I can fit these. I need a safe and reliable vehicle for work and for the long trip south coming up. Problem is by the time i have waited for it to settle down down (about two weeks) I will be on the road south so will not have another chance to fix / address this issue. On the up side I have a trip to Taupo next weekend so I should be confident in the work by then (or not as the case may be).

If it doesnt fix it I will sell the frigging think and take up knitting!

[Heath]

Dropped wagon off and they are going to replace the front arms and bushes (got the whole arm/bush combo cheaper then two bushes, $340 each arm (was $1400 each arm ) - go figure toyota pricing).

So its going to have another W/A to check if things are still holding (just a quick check), then off with the front flippers and on with the new ones.

I'll bring the old ones home and figure out what to do with them at some stage (trademe probably).

So if this doesnt fix the probs then I will just have to live with it.

[Heath]

New toyota arms and toyota bushes installed. Seems more sturdy (less skittish) so far.

Installer commented on the bushes in the toyota arms were different front to rear but the after market ones are the same - Hmmmmmm. Maybe they are identical except for looks (or maybe not).

I have the old arms and bushes so if someone wants to buy the arms give me a yell (PM). I don't want a lot for them, but a few foldies would be nice so I can offset the cost of the new ones...