Project Lemon Extreme New front axle

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De-Ranged
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Project Lemon Extreme New front axle

Post by De-Ranged »

Made the call no more half measures, I'm gona have some fun :twisted:

So heres the first of it 8)

The front axle case.... I've rotated the swivel housings 15deg and the spring seats by 6deg, beefed up the spring seats, made them level and 12mm taller (made it easier to deal with the drivers side one :wink: ) I've converted them to bolt mounts instead of the U bolts, grade 12 caps :twisted: the nut sits on the bottom and they are held up against the side of the housing so tthey can't move
Gave it a bit of extra strength :lol:
And replaced the diff studs with M10 button head bolts, (you might notice some are longer got plans for them later :twisted: )

Image
Image
Image

I'm gona be working hard on this so there should be more soon, next up an improvement to the steering arm studs :wink: oh and an IFS hub swop already done this... I'll take some pics when I put it back together

Cheers Reece
Last edited by De-Ranged on Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mattman
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Post by Mattman »

Nice work Reece, that looks wicked!

Matt.
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Post by Rangielux »

:shock: Holy shamoley :!:

I'm lost for words................................

Jeepers
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turoa
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Post by turoa »

Thats awesome. It needs to go in a front axle hall of fame 8)

I did have an idea to adapt GQ front swivels to the hilux housing, and use the hubs and CV's and get inner axles made. But are GQ Cv's that much stronger than hilux ones?
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Post by SupraSurf »

:shock: :shock: :shock: WOW :shock: :shock: :shock:

Thats evil.. I want one !!

Forget the GQ stuff, not really that much stronger and for all the work you might as well go this way.....

http://www.longfieldsuperaxles.com/

And if ya wanna go nuts then fit the 80 series knuckles and then go for 80 series Longs !!!
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Post by rokhound »

Holy shit Reece, that really looks "the tits" man. 8) 8) 8)
Plenty of hours invested there me thinks.

Don't want to be picky or anything, but I have seen some new perch plates made in the past with a concave in them to accomodate the bend in the springs. The guy who did it believed that it would let the spring sit static with out putting it under stress where it is pulled down onto the perch.

Having said that, his axle didn't look a patch on that beast of yours. :P :P

Ps if you need it stress tested, send it down this way and let suprasurf loose with it for weekend :twisted:
Ugly is a state of mind..... and the state of my truck!
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Post by Steve_t647 »

Next project Lemon goes on a diet? :oops:

That is a serious piece of kit and beautifully done, can't wait to see how the lemon comes out.

Now why cant I do anything like that? Now I have to see what you do to the back one.
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Post by MATT4U »

WOW :o :o :o
Are you going to shave the bottom as well???
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turoa
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Post by turoa »

MATT4U wrote:WOW :o :o :o
Are you going to shave the bottom as well???


Its already shaved :shock:
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Post by MATT4U »

Tis to :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Post by De-Ranged »

have seen some new perch plates made in the past with a concave in them to accomodate the bend in the springs

Hmmm not a bad idea... I've got a bit of meat in the top of the spring seats made em out of 10mm plate :twisted: I could get a bit of "dish" in there with the grinder.... I'll have to modify the top plate but thats no problem ..... good idea Thanks for that

:lol: yes it is shaved and armor plated :twisted:

Next project Lemon goes on a diet?

8) if its below the chassi I'm not to concerned about weight it adds strength and lowers my center of gravity above the chassi 8) thats what my new drill set is for :lol:

Plenty of hours invested there me thinks.
:lol: you have no idea the better part of a week the whole lot has been stitch welded and I let it cool down between each weld to control warpage as much as possible :wink: quite a lot of woodies disapeared while we waited :lol:

Ps if you need it stress tested, send it down this way and let suprasurf loose with it for weekend

:lol: dont' worry I have a test track all lined up :twisted: the local council seem to support rock crawling by leaving little play areas of rocks ringing the end of alot of there roads... 8) infact there is a beach access nearby that has quite a pile with some interesting lines :twisted:

Cheers Reece
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Post by SupraLux »

Where the hell has the :drool: smiley gone?! :P

Nice work... can't wait to see you bend it :lol:

Steve
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Post by IcedJohnno »

Nice to see some more good engineering Reece.
However I have a concern about your choice of using grade 12 capscrews rather than normal Ubolt material.

I have seen these break in the past several times. The most extreme example was on a front axle resulting in a roll over and a full knee replacement and then a 3 month removal of the whole knee joint whilst patient was in traction, 10 years later due to a weird form of bone cancer.

The reason the grade 12 bolts failed was the lack of elongation of this material. The correct torque setting is very near the yield point of the steel. Any extra loads induced by spring articulation etc will likely cause the bolt to fail. As I think you will know, you cant get around this by using less torque on the bolts as they will have other issues like undoing or shockloadings happening due to not enough clamping force.

Talk with Bellamy and East in Chch, Springmakers who make a lot of Ubolts. I think they use 1012 or perhaps 1020 grade steel but dont quote me. The steel they use has a much greater elongation or stretch factor before the yield point.

Another possibility for mounting your springs that I have seen done on a race car is to mount the springs on a spherical bearing similar to a rosejoint. This allowed full articulation with minimal spring distortion from spring twist. The car handled very well. Not sure of the life of the bearing in our conditions. It would need some careful engineering design to size and life the bearing. Food for thought anyway.

Cheers John
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Post by SupraLux »

IcedJohnno wrote:Nice to see some more good engineering Reece.
However I have a concern about your choice of using grade 12 capscrews rather than normal Ubolt material.


I was going to mention this too - but didn't want to be "negative" :P

IcedJohnno wrote:Another possibility for mounting your springs that I have seen done on a race car is to mount the springs on a spherical bearing similar to a rosejoint. This allowed full articulation with minimal spring distortion from spring twist. The car handled very well. Not sure of the life of the bearing in our conditions. It would need some careful engineering design to size and life the bearing. Food for thought anyway.


Johnny joints, orbit eyes, etc... common fit, although they normally need a larger eye in the spring to take them. Interesting side note- AOR (Advanced Offroad Research) who made the orbit eye have gone... site down, business liquidated apparently... they had some cool stuff, wonder what went wrong... Alcan, who made their custom springs for those joints now has the orbit eye...

http://www.alcanspring.com/orbit-eye.htm

Steve
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Post by De-Ranged »

:oops: I didn't even think about the lack of elongation I was looking at the yeild figers alone (at full torque...) I might look at increasing the bolt size.... or maybe add another set of bolts to the out side to give me some more redundancy.
I'm just looking at the bs involved in building custom U bolts, thanks to the rotation, my lower profile is going to be different for each bolt :roll:

Thanks for that link those orbit eyes look dam smart :D but I"ve already got some thing underway to allow the movement and it won't require custom springs with larger eye's :wink:

I was going to mention this too - but didn't want to be "negative"

:lol: :lol: come on steve I'm also on Pirate you think I'd last long there if I couldn't take a "negative" comment (insert "raised finger" smiley :roll: )
:lol: besides I'd rather some one piont these issues out before I discover the hard way :shock: :lol:

Cheers Reece
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Post by suzolla »

Interesting Discussion.
Not sure that I aggree with some of the comments being made.

"The reason the grade 12 bolts failed was the lack of elongation of this material. The correct torque setting is very near the yield point of the steel. Any extra loads induced by spring articulation etc will likely cause the bolt to fail. As I think you will know, you cant get around this by using less torque on the bolts as they will have other issues like undoing or shockloadings happening due to not enough clamping force."


This dosen't quite make sense to me.
All ferritic steels (mild, high tensile, 4340, 1030, spring etc) have virtually the same stretchiness or elasticity (youngs modulus) ie load versus elongation, its just that mild steel bolt will stretch less before it starts to yeild than say a high tensile bolt. That is why mild steel is no good as a spring while a hardened and tempered high carbon steel is.
The clamping force generated by a bolt and nut is not dependent on the material, it is dependent on the torque, thread pitch, surface finish and effectiveness of the lubrication.
You can tighten a high tensile bolt to the same torque as a mild steel bolt it that torque will provide the clamping force required. If you then have the situation where the bolt is put under more load due to external forces, if the load goes above the yield point of the mild steel bolts then the assembly will become loose and may even fail if it goes above the UTS (ultimate tensile strength) wheresas with the high tensile bolt it will stetch and then return if the load dosen't go over the yield point, if it is severly overload then yes it will also fail.
Yes I agree that the amount of stretch that will occur from the point of yeild to the point of failure is less for a high tensile material, but it takes alot more load to get to that point.
And yes very hard materials are more brittle when impacted from an instantaneous shock, but I would say that the type of shocks that occur while driving do not give an instantaneous type shock.

This is the reason that for tow hooks it is required that you use high tensile bolts and not mild steel.

Personally I would use Grade 8.8 as it gives good strength while still yielding a bit before they fail. But it is up to you what you use.

For those that don't know how metric grades work.
4.6 means 400 Mpa UTS and 240 Mpa Yeild
8.8 means 800 Mpa UTS and 640 Mpa Yeild
10.9 means 1000 Mpa UTS and 900 Mpa Yeild
12.9 means 1200 Mpa UTS and 1100 Mpa Yeild
These are approx values.

As a comparison for an M12 x 1.75 bolt.
A 4.6 will yield at about 1.8 tonnes and fail at about 3.3 tonnes load.
An 8.8 will yield at about 4.8 tonnes and fail at about 6.6 tonnes load.

If you use a metric fine ie M12 x 1.25 then they will be stronger.

Hope this is of some help.

Regards
Tim
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Post by SupraLux »

suzolla wrote:And yes very hard materials are more brittle when impacted from an instantaneous shock, but I would say that the type of shocks that occur while driving do not give an instantaneous type shock.


Tim, very cool tech but did you see the pic of the axle? This is no ordinary driving we're talking about :lol:

Steve
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Post by De-Ranged »

:lol: Don't worry about it I've decided to throw an extra set of bolts either side of the front two bolts.... my thinking :drunken: is that when going forward (the direction I'm going hardest) most nocks will be cousing a rotational load on the axle that places the front bolts in a tension load the rear two are just there for decoration till your in reverse or its something hitting near to or above axle hight (on the wheel) then its a shearing load That means other than reverse I've increased strength by 50-100% by adding 4 bolts

I'm also going to have an anti axle wrap bar so this will also help provide support against the rotational loading

8) clear as mud ....

What da think am I right ??

Cheers Reece
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Post by wopass »

suzolla wrote:Interesting Discussion.
Not sure that I aggree with some of the comments being made.

"The reason the grade 12 bolts failed was the lack of elongation of this material. The correct torque setting is very near the yield point of the steel. Any extra loads induced by spring articulation etc will likely cause the bolt to fail. As I think you will know, you cant get around this by using less torque on the bolts as they will have other issues like undoing or shockloadings happening due to not enough clamping force."


This dosen't quite make sense to me.
All ferritic steels (mild, high tensile, 4340, 1030, spring etc) have virtually the same stretchiness or elasticity (youngs modulus) ie load versus elongation, its just that mild steel bolt will stretch less before it starts to yeild than say a high tensile bolt. That is why mild steel is no good as a spring while a hardened and tempered high carbon steel is.
The clamping force generated by a bolt and nut is not dependent on the material, it is dependent on the torque, thread pitch, surface finish and effectiveness of the lubrication.
You can tighten a high tensile bolt to the same torque as a mild steel bolt it that torque will provide the clamping force required. If you then have the situation where the bolt is put under more load due to external forces, if the load goes above the yield point of the mild steel bolts then the assembly will become loose and may even fail if it goes above the UTS (ultimate tensile strength) wheresas with the high tensile bolt it will stetch and then return if the load dosen't go over the yield point, if it is severly overload then yes it will also fail.
Yes I agree that the amount of stretch that will occur from the point of yeild to the point of failure is less for a high tensile material, but it takes alot more load to get to that point.
And yes very hard materials are more brittle when impacted from an instantaneous shock, but I would say that the type of shocks that occur while driving do not give an instantaneous type shock.

This is the reason that for tow hooks it is required that you use high tensile bolts and not mild steel.

Personally I would use Grade 8.8 as it gives good strength while still yielding a bit before they fail. But it is up to you what you use.

For those that don't know how metric grades work.
4.6 means 400 Mpa UTS and 240 Mpa Yeild
8.8 means 800 Mpa UTS and 640 Mpa Yeild
10.9 means 1000 Mpa UTS and 900 Mpa Yeild
12.9 means 1200 Mpa UTS and 1100 Mpa Yeild
These are approx values.

As a comparison for an M12 x 1.75 bolt.
A 4.6 will yield at about 1.8 tonnes and fail at about 3.3 tonnes load.
An 8.8 will yield at about 4.8 tonnes and fail at about 6.6 tonnes load.

If you use a metric fine ie M12 x 1.25 then they will be stronger.

Hope this is of some help.

Regards
Tim


thats exactly what i was going to say.... 8)

i aggree 100%...only because i know you are right :wink: you da man Tim ( see you at work on Monday :D )
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Post by De-Ranged »

Well the axle is just about finished all I need is the mounts for the shocks and air rams :twisted:

Anyway here is a couple of shots of the curved and beefed spring seats
Image
and heres the top mounting plate with a bump stop sitting where it will mount :? still uncertain how hard I neg flex the springs and how big to make the bump stop once I make my mind up I'll bolt a set on
Image

Will have a few other bits and pieces up soon as well... just a case of finding time :roll: Oh just about finished the IFS hub swop tech thread for all that asked 8)

Cheers Reece
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Post by niblik »

:thumright: thats tops...

looks great fella..
ImageImage
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Post by De-Ranged »

Heres a bit more I've done over the last couple of weeks

IFS Hub Swop and a Steering Arm stud Upgrade :twisted:

The hub swop gives me another 70mm in width without needing spacers :twisted: my width now is 1.9m to the dot 8) I'm gona need it as this thing sits F'n high :shock:
Image
Heres one with the wheel on showing why I did it this way instead of the spacer notice how nicely tucked away it is 8)
Image

While I was at it I did a bit of an improvement on the steering arm studs, there can be a problem with large wheels and high steer arms all the leverage rips the studs out :twisted: I don't think I'm gona have that problem now
Image

More coming soon 8)

Cheers Reece
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Post by NuTTa »

Gawd Damn Reece.!!!!..you've impressed me :lol: ..when is my truck due in your garage.???? :twisted:
great work..i'll have to call in next time in in the Bay of Hawkes..


Cheers
Brendon
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Post by De-Ranged »

:lol: your truck will have to wait its turn, I've got to get Steves done first

As for dropping in, the fridge is always stocked :wink:

The truck is actually a bit further along than my posts its just with everything at the moment getting posts up is a bit of a hassle :roll: but I'm getting there :lol:

Cheers Reece
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;-p

Post by wopass »

lookin good dude :D
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Post by De-Ranged »

Oh and for all that asked here is the long awaited "How to IFS hub swop"

Tech Section - Toyota solid axle IFS hub swop

Cheers Reece
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Post by De-Ranged »

Hey Ben you know the really funny thing about all this.... I actually stand a chance of having the Lemon running for the big trip 8) and I can't go... got to take my son to Jaffa land as he's been given an appointment to see a specialist at star-ship :lol:

Oh well next year :D

Cheers Reece
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Post by wopass »

De-Ranged wrote:Hey Ben you know the really funny thing about all this.... I actually stand a chance of having the Lemon running for the big trip 8) and I can't go... got to take my son to Jaffa land as he's been given an appointment to see a specialist at star-ship :lol:

Oh well next year :D

Cheers Reece


the N.I safari isnt the only trip mate, there will be plenty of other trips 8) i can feel a trip to national park in the air...... where is that bloody DB 8)
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Post by De-Ranged »

Heres a bit more to go with the extreme theme.... I hacked up the steering box mount and moved it as far forward as I could.... had to cut out the side of the cab mount and will have to modifiy the cab where it sits on the mount

the reason why 8) I've lowered the motor to lower my center of gravity
Image
The mounts are now welded to the base of the chassi, to help clear the sump I've had to move the box as far forward as I could
Image
Image

hopefully should have some progress soon on the gearbox

Cheers Reece
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Post by NuTTa »

Your a Bloody Genious Reece, if anyone can do this i'd be more than happy to put money on you.!!!..

Keep up the fine work.
:lol:

Cheers
Brendon
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