Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Discussions concerning land access, DOC legislation and 4wd regulations
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DieselBoy
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by DieselBoy »

Swamped wrote:Yeah it seems everyone knows occupation doesn't mean ownership however you can apply to have unformed paper roads removed. I don't think land owners will say bah its my land so stay off if you tell em the way paper roads work, its more the fact damage and theft can occur elswhere and the paper road just gives people a way in which is whats behind the stay off "my" land thing I think.


Thats totally it in a nut shell :D

Its those that can't behave themselves and those that can't keep there fingers off other peoples stuff that are the issue.

But we all agree that we have the right to use paper roads, so if we are not in a situation where we can "TELL" (not ask) an adjacent land owner that we will be accessing this road, and are challenged, such as what happened to stage1v8 at the weekend, you can all now say that we have the right to be there, and no we aren't going to make a mess or steel your stuff, so let us be :D :D


:idea: When intending to travel a Paper Road, the check list from this thread so far is: :idea:

:arrow: Do your research first and make sure it is actually a legal road

:arrow: Try your best to contact any adjacent land owners and notify them of your intent

:arrow: Take a GPS and a 1:50 Topo incase you are challenged

:arrow: Be respectful of the road, others property adjacent to the road, and any locals you may come accross. Don't play.

:arrow: Remember that an adjacent land owner can't deny you access if it is a legal road, so be sure of your facts before you push the point.

:arrow: Be prepared to back down and take another approach with the support of the local council or other influential group.
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Landy Rover
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Landy Rover »

PeterVahry wrote:Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads – The Sequel
Published October 2007
The main purpose of this report is to provide an illustration of the method and the depth of research underpinning Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads.

Roading law as it applies to unformed roads
Published March 2007
This commentary explains the nature of the "Queen's highway", what the free right of passage is, the special character of roads along rivers, lakes and the sea, as well as some historical perspective.

http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/page/6/ ... tions.html


Just read bits of that document. So if a legal road stays forever unless specifically changed by law, then for example, if land is given to ewi that has paper roads, they still cannot stop access?
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DieselBoy
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by DieselBoy »

Landy Rover wrote:
PeterVahry wrote:Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads – The Sequel
Published October 2007
The main purpose of this report is to provide an illustration of the method and the depth of research underpinning Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads.

Roading law as it applies to unformed roads
Published March 2007
This commentary explains the nature of the "Queen's highway", what the free right of passage is, the special character of roads along rivers, lakes and the sea, as well as some historical perspective.

http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/page/6/ ... tions.html


Just read bits of that document. So if a legal road stays forever unless specifically changed by law, then for example, if land is given to ewi that has paper roads, they still cannot stop access?



Read it some more, Maori Land is different :evil: :evil:
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Landy Rover
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Landy Rover »

DieselBoy wrote:
Landy Rover wrote:
PeterVahry wrote:Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads – The Sequel
Published October 2007
The main purpose of this report is to provide an illustration of the method and the depth of research underpinning Roading Law as it Applies to Unformed Roads.

Roading law as it applies to unformed roads
Published March 2007
This commentary explains the nature of the "Queen's highway", what the free right of passage is, the special character of roads along rivers, lakes and the sea, as well as some historical perspective.

http://www.walkingaccess.org.nz/page/6/ ... tions.html


Just read bits of that document. So if a legal road stays forever unless specifically changed by law, then for example, if land is given to ewi that has paper roads, they still cannot stop access?



Read it some more, Maori Land is different :evil: :evil:

Cheers, will do :)
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furnace
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by furnace »

i do not know that much about paper roads but here's something a little interesting,i have just bought one here on the Westcoast as a section all surveyed,i think the council must have closed it down...its a narrow section only 10 metres wide ideal for my caravan and a place to stay when 4x4ing on the coast
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lincooln
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by lincooln »

Well if any one wants to check the status of a road in the Rodney district I have a Council Map book with all the roads listed, formed and unformed.

Regards forestry putting up gates, they are doing so Illegally. The council Has had many legal battles with the forestry re access roads and so on, but the council cannot check all of the roads all of the time, so if it is a forestry issue gate let the council know. It may be allowed, but its best to check.

Other gates that have been put up, particularly around the north west Auckland area, have been by Council due to people going up the roads a 3 at night, setting cars on fire, stealing, getting stuck and waking the farmer up to give them a tow, etc.

It is common courtesy to let the land owners, who's land backs on to the road, know that you are doing a run or recce and that he or she can take your rego numbers just in case anything does happen. Best thing to do id to be polite. Don't get abusive and agro, that won't help you out at all.

Some land owners have no Idea there is a "road" running through their land so can be understandably taken aback when a group of 4wd's turn up wanting to go across their land. As said before, take a Map with you showing the roads, bring legal documents and if all else fail's, leave and tell the council so they can set up a meeting etc.

I could write more but I'm sure thats enough for know.

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Moriarty
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Moriarty »

Two or more things to consider.

Stop thinking and writing in terms of "paper roads," they are UNFORMED ROADS and should be referred to as such.

I know its more keys to press, but I am thinking of the mindset that goes along with the term Paper road.

"Its only a road on PAPER, not a REAL road at all".

Whereas an UNFORMED road IS a real road, just not yet looks like one.
you see my point?

Mappings sets.

the only map that makes sense of all this are the CADASTRAL series these are being updated and will be released in electronic form giving LINZ info as per unformed roads and other data. much safer to use them for your unformed roads (URs) locations when informing farmers etc of the actuality of the roads.

B
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lincooln
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by lincooln »

i do try to use unformed roads, but paper roads is just a habbit. i will get used to it.
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Armz
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Armz »

Im just finnishing off my Surveying degree, and there has been many discussing in a few of my papers over unformed roads and the legal use of them for recreation.

I have been involved in redefining a few unformed roads when I was working up in Northland. As many of the roads are designed on paper and therefore they a typically stright lines that go up and over hills on unpractical to drive routes (even as a good challenge or they go though thick bush). Also often farmers do put fences over the actual road location, and a gate located of to the side, on their private property, so to use the gate you'll be tresspass, but getting out some wire cutters doesnt really do the best things for landowner relationships.

From my experance working at a local Council, they really dont care about a fence over a unformed road, the roading department have alot more "important" work to do.

LINZ latest computer system landonlineallows registed users to download all the upto date property boundaries into a gps unit which is good help for proving your on the legal road

So its a tough one IMO, some land owners know the road exist and will happy let you go on your way but many more, knowing why you want access arent that keen
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baxter
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by baxter »

Courteous and considerate is where I stand.

But that does not include having to ask permission to access a public road. Of course I'm happy to inform land-owners out of courtesy if I know they like know and/or their contact information is available.
And if they explain it's lambing season etc and even though I'm perfectly legally allowed to access it they'd rather I didn't, then that's no problem I respect that and don't.
EDIT: just to clarify above - of course no problem at all asking a land owner's permission if it is private land I'm wanting to travel over.

But I have to say I totally have no respect for land-owners who illegally block such access ways (eg locked gates, and non-drop-able fences) - because they are after all essentially stealing access from the public by doing so.

Gates that don't have the legally required "public road" sign on them also greatly annoy me. They are in effect locked gate to people like me who don't want to risk accidentally straying into private property. It's greatly annoying that such land-owners use my honesty to block my access to public roads.


And let's not forget the landowners bought the land with the knowledge that it has public access-ways on it. For them to cry about it afterwards is like the people who bought houses next door to a speedway circuit and complain about the noise :roll:
Last edited by baxter on Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Bulletproof »

There are a couple of other aspects to consider.

1 we may have legal right through some ones property but if we get off side by demanding our rights with one farmer you can say goodbye to all farmers in that area because they all stick together and talk at the sales yard.

2 Many paper roads are not 100% paper roads anymore because rivers have changed course over the years and slips have come down so therefore a farmer can refuse access through because you are now driving on their land.

The Rainbow Road from St Arnaud to Hanmer Springs is an example and the Rainbow Station charges $20 access.

My attitude is always to maintain a good relationship with the farmers and then they actually give you over tracks that are on private land.

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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by Pico42 »

Bulletproof wrote:
2 Many paper roads are not 100% paper roads anymore because rivers have changed course over the years and slips have come down so therefore a farmer can refuse access through because you are now driving on their land.



In those scenarios, the road is still a legal road, however, the physical access is blocked. This means people are deviating from the legal road alignment onto adjoining, private, land and of course access can be refused by the landowner.

I agree 100% with maintaining a good relationship with the landowners, but sometime, where they are being unreasonable, it is difficult.
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by SV1K »

DJ wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 1994. 'Public Access', No. 4 / amended June 2002

Public Roads -- A Users' Guide
The key concept behind the law of highways is the right of passage. Your rights, and limitations on your actions, and those of administering district councils, hinge on this concept.

Whether a public road is formed or unformed (including so-called 'paper roads') has no bearing on their legal status, or on your rights of use. There is the same right of passage.

New Zealand public roads are strips of land normally 20 metres wide with ownership vested in district councils. Adjoining land owners have the same rights of use as members of the general public, plus a right of 'frontage' (access) to their property along their legal boundary with the road. They are not 'The Owners' of public roads, as frequently asserted or implied.

The following advice reflects current New Zealand statutory and common law. The direct-actions noted below have been repeatedly 'field-tested' without any legal liabilities falling on the practitioners.

What you can do--
each and every member of the public can assert their right to pass and repass without hindrance, by whatever means they choose (provided it doesn't damage the surface). The right of passage is vested in the public, not councils - their ownership is in the capacility of trustees.
do other things related to passage, e.g., parking, resting etc.
remove 'public nuisances'*, erected without statutory authority, sufficient ( i.e. no more than what is necessary), to enable passage.
* Recommend leaving materials to one side without unnecessary damage. Not every encroachment amounts to a 'nuisance' - needs to be 'an appreciable interference' with, or an obstruction to, your rights of passage such as a lock or barrier. What amounts to 'appreciable interference' is a matter of fact on a case by case basis.
NOTE: There may be liability if stock escapes on to vehicular roads and causes a traffic hazard. If a risk, we recommend removing fencing when stock are absent then immediately notifying owner in writing that fencing is not stock-proof--then their liability.
remove vegetation sufficient for passage (ie. clear tracks).
as an adversely affected member of the public, sue the person responsible for a nuisance, and the district council if it authorised it. There is no obligation to initiate legal proceedings as the sole course of action. Removal of obstructions can lawfully occur independently (the power to assert passage), or in conjunction with legal action.
What you or an adjoining occupier cannot do--
occupy or obstruct a road to the exclusion of the public.
encroach on a road by any building, fence, ditch, or other obstacle, or plant any tree or scrub, without authorisation from the district council (note however that councils cannot lawfully authorise public nuisances).
dig up, remove, or alter in any way the soil or surface or scarp or a road, without authorisation from the council.
damage or remove or alter any gate or cattle stop lawfully erected.
What you must do--
leave a lawfully erected gate in the position (whether open or closed) in which it is found.
What district councils can do--
close roads temporarily to traffic or any specified type of traffic with public notification, for reasons of road construction or repair, resolution of traffic problems, when public disorder exists or is anticipated, for temporary diversion to other roads, for exhibitions, fairs, public functions etc., and to motor vehicle use, or any class of motor vehicle, when climatic conditions may cause road damage.
close roads temporarily (for motor races or other special events) to vehicular traffic, with public notification and right of objection (pedestrian access remains).
'stop' or permanently close roads after a public notification and objection procedure (watch out for public notices in local newspaper). Council decisions to 'stop' roads are subject to a right of appeal to the Environment Court. The key determinate is the need for the road (e.g., provides legal access to individual allotments or the uses to which the road is being put to, now and in the future, and by whom including recreational uses in the context of the overall use by the community), not any perceived need for 'stopping' such as undesirability of public access through inconvenience or loss of privacy for adjoining owners.
grant leases of airspaces above roads, provided that sufficient airspace remains for the free and unobstructed passage of vehicles and pedestrians.
permit in writing the erection of a swing gate with a 'Public Road' sign, or a cattle stop, or both across a road, where it is not practical or reasonable to fence the boundaries of the road.
sue any person in respect of a nuisance arising from an unreasonable interference with the public right of passage.
compel removal, or recover the cost of removal, of an obstruction.
What district councils cannot do--
create a nuisance, or deprive any person of any right or remedy they would have against the council or any other person in respect of any such nuisance.
lawfully authorise obstructions (e.g., locks, fences*, stock yards, buildings) across roads (* fences in association with lawfully erected gates and cattle stops, are lawful).
grant rights of use or occupation that create a public nuisance or interfere with public rights.
What district councils are liable for--
obstructions it has authorised when they become nuisances, should they become aware of them.
permitting an obstruction it has authorised, once it becomes a nuisance, to remain on a road or otherwise fails to abate the nuisance.
What district councils are not liable for--
spending money on road construction or maintenance (a Council discretion).
obstructions to roads of which they have no knowledge.

Caution
1. This is a summary and not the complete law relating to roads. Consult a lawyer.
2. This advice is dependent on the road being properly dedicated.
3. You must be certain you are on the correct alignment.


For a fuller explanation of legal rights and how to research the status and location of roads see
'Public Roads-A Guide to Rights of Access to the Countryside', and http://www.publicaccessnewzealand.org



UBZ wrote:DJ wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May 1994. 'Public Access', No. 4 / amended June 2002

Public Roads -- A Users' Guide

http://www.publicaccessnewzealand.org



the date of this document is interesting , Land transport Policy and legislation underwent a major re-vamp nationwide in 2006 . So some of the statements may not nesserally be true anymore.

Above link dosnt work for me either , but that's porborby cause I'm on a MAC.



DJ wrote:Quote:
amended June 2002

I belive this is current as it was amended in 2002 and there doesn't appear to any court cases setting another presidence over ruling this.
What is the recommended course of action,( hypothetical)
Im travelling down a sign posted road which turns into a track ,then come across a gate blocking access. A sign (eg road closed or private property keep out )or words to that effect, is posted. But I suspect that this is a 'paper' and the public may have the right of access.
Or in the case of Endean Road Northern ,there is a sign pointing into a fenced farmed paddock with no gates or any indication that a road? ever existed.
Some roads are access to farms, private areas etc, that stop at their boundries ,but how do you find out ? I would not like to try to drive thru someones farm or thru a park etc to find out I should have followed some sort of prior steps to establish free access.
Go to the council ? they are not likely to be helpful as they may have opposing interests.
Ask the occupier? I'm allergic to pain and guns.
consult a lawyer? I dont need to answer that one
Ask http://www.publicaccess?. I dont think Ill live that long
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drive it ...
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by drive it ... »

Take a look at www.wams.org.nz
Has cadastral (legal) roads overlay on top of either topo map or aerial photo. More info appears as you zoom in.
Print those out before your trip, or better still take the laptop and aircard (must get both of those one day :? ) and now its getting really useful.

The topo is good for the bigger view then using the aerial photos you can see exactly where the legal road is relative to the track, hill, bush, fence, etc.
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by phil_elvey »

Gidday guys, am new here and picking up this old thread.

It is of interest to me, as many of you, as wanting to find great places to have a "sensible" (ie. responsible and non-damaging) bit of fun and adventure.

Recently we did a trip to some friends near Apiti - looking on Google Maps there was a loop that was marked by Google as a road the way through, yet the reality was the middle section was over someone's paddocks and creek. I figured this was probably a section of paper road. We just asked permission from the farmer, and that was all OK and we were allowed to pass through.

However it sparked my interest in this topic, and particularly I am wanting to find out how "authorative" the Google Maps road markings are.

I found the link to the WAMS map and had a look - it's a great map. However when looking up the section of road we took, the WAMS map has a different road marking to the Google Map.

You can see on the Google map the "paper road" (if it is one) follows the farmer's track. However on the WAMS map, it is different, and while it joins the loop, it follows a path that you couldn't actually drive on.

I've attached screenshots of the same place from both maps. Can anyone shed any light on this topic, particularly in relation to Google's road markings?
Attachments
WAMS marking
WAMS marking
Google Maps marking
Google Maps marking
PeterVahry
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by PeterVahry »

Google maps are not as accurate as the WAMS. The latter system is built directly on the LINZ cadastral data.

Early surveys did not always draw the easiest route on the ground, whereas a farmer with a bulldozer usually would. A benefit of asking a landowner about access where an unformed legal road (ULR) is known to exist, is that they will often prefer the use of their existing track, rather than having pasture damaged by vehicles otherwise obliged to use the ULR. (Even though they don't own that pasture, it still has very useful value to a farmer.)
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phil_elvey
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Re: Paper Roads, were do you stand??

Post by phil_elvey »

Yep, you make a good point there. I guess all it's no dramas to me until the day I ask a landowner for permission to pass and get denied (for no good reason). Cross that bridge when I come to it I guess...
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