Winch advice wanted for BlackDog firewooding

[IcedJohnno]

Hi all
I am thinking of installing a winch, something I have wanted for ages!

My justification is my firewood / logging work that I do.
I am wanting to use it to haul logs from the bush. It will be getting 15 minutes use, every 1/2 hour.
I may get access to some really big Bluegums on a ridgeline soon. I don't think the Prado will be up to skidding these!

My thoughts are that I put a PTO system onto my KZJ-71 Prado.
I know that I will need to install gears in the transfer case, and create the driveline past the radiator bottom tank etc. All stuff I can do.

I have also wondered about electric winches, due to ease of install and possibly that they are more powerful than the PTO ones.
What winches provide the most pull and which ones have a greater frequency of use (duty cycle, in welders speak)?

Marty talks of forward reverse PTO selectors

If its a 3 position PTO that you can run forward/reverse instead of engage/disengage then you've got something thats a bit more sought after but you'll find most people arent prepared to pay high prices for them, I've had 3 of them (still got 2 ) and the most I ever paid was $350 for one of them

What advantage does this give you. I assume it is the ability to lower stuff or are there other reasons?

I have also wondered about a hydraulic setup, as I could use the pump to drive a tipping ram on my wood trailer in the future. I suspect that this winch setup would be an expensive way forward though.

Whilst back in work now, (fabricating for a company TomsOffroad used to work for) and attempting to get back on my feet by still doing firewood, money is tight... 6 months on a sickness benefit doesn't help the back pocket!

Ideas folks?
I know there is plenty of knowledge on this forum.
Keen to learn it, as I have little 4-by winching experience.

Cheers
The not so black-dogged Johnno

[rokhound]

The usefulness that an electric would give John is the fact that you can use it remotely. IE if a log is tangled up on something and you are alone, you can go sort the tangle and operate the winch with the remote from that spot. I have a 6000 pound winch on my trailer for tipping duties, it will tip off 1.5m3 (about 2 - 2.25 t) of hardfill with out too many problems. A guy with your skill could set this up in no time at all.

[philux]

Probably not much help, if you were to go electric based on the superwinch ep9 12v you would need an alternator that has an output of 90 odd amps to bring the battery for the winch back to a fully charged state (over an hour based on 15min use every hour pulling 9000ibs) another electric option would be a stand alone 24v system, 24v winch then the 24v alternator could be 45amp. Less current = less heat = more efficiency = less problems.
My 2c

[kbjj]

Hey John, 15 min of winching is a hell of a long time with electric to pull big logs across the ground. Short (1-2min) of hard winching will suck the guts out off my two 750cca batterys. Duty cycle... I remember reading about a specialist warn winch with good duty cycle, but I bet it would cost heaps. I've heard of water cooling tubes wound around motors for extend periods of abuse, I can blow air through mine if needed.
From what I've seen, PTO's are stronger, faster and as long as motor is going, you've got all day winching. Hydraulic is a nice option but can get very expensive.
PTO would be my pick for your situation, but electric probably cheaper
My 2c
Jeremy

[Heath]

Whilst back in work now, (fabricating for a company TomsOffroad used to work for) and attempting to get back on my feet by still doing firewood, money is tight... 6 months on a sickness benefit doesn't help the back pocket!

Cheers
The not so black-dogged Johnno

Good to hear you'regetting back into the saddle, will be keen for some more hard wood before next winter (feb mar next year) if you are still doing it. (sorry for the thread jack)

Regards,

Heath

[mudlva]

heres an idea and it may be the best of booth worlds re pto power supply ( not alternator ) and hydraulic winch

I am running a 10,000pd hydraulic winch off my mini bobcat hydraulic system

the bobcat is running 50ltrs/m at up to 3000psi

this will give you a base to work off

mount winch on the rear of vehicle maybe at the front of the deck with the rope going through rollers/far leads at the rear of tray this will help keep the spool level winding.

with pto output mounted with rear output that will be used to drive power to a hydraulic pump. this pump can be tucked away under the tray but high enough not to get nailed whilst driving etc

hydraulic tank directly above pump

you will need to incorporate forward and reverse either by remote or manually operated

you will also need to incorporate a filter system and a oil cooler

my system is able to move approximately 3t logs as long as i can anchor the machine adequately

now im using a 10,000pd unit with a two speed gear box on high speed it will still drag easily 0.5/1t logs and its pulling at a fast running speed, in low speed its pulling the bigger logs and its still pulling at a fast walking speed

i pulled the O/E valve block off as there was a major fluid restriction in the forward reverse system and the fluid was being pushed through a 3.3mm hole. with the flow block off it reveled a 9.5dia ports which is way better to get that flow rate up

as yet i have stalled the pump in high speed but in low it just bend the anchor blade and made a mess of everything

personally i think hydraulic's is the way to go a lot more forgiving than pto manual winch and with the option of remotes a lot less to'ing and fo'ing whilst extracting your wanted logs

i have done lots with hydraulics and if you have any questions fire away

regards Rohan

[sig]

IMO pto or hydraulic are the go .electric will not cut the mustard for what you will be doing .We were taught that electric for self recovery ie 1 or 2 winchs ,pto for everybody else recovery ie lots of winching , my 2.3 cents worth ( incl gst)

[red-devil]

John i have used my factory winch on the VX for pulling logs out too. after pulling out 2 loads i had to have the truck running for the rest of the days winching. i would go PTO or PTO / Hydrolic you will still the truck running but it will work all day.

i stopped using the winch and just towed them logs out slowly.

[Sadam_Husain]

My thoughts are that I put a PTO system onto my KZJ-71 Prado.

x2 on the PTO if you're going to be doing long hard work and want longevity out of your setup, you should be able to pick up a complete pto setup for 500 bucks and even half that price if you do a bit of TM trolling and find one that everyone puts on their watchlist and forgets to bid on, I got a complete pto setup for 220 a few years back downside of a cruiser PTO is the shearpins are piss weak and undersize at 4mm and theres not enough meat left on the coupling to drill it out any bigger but someone with your skills could make or modify a coupling to fit with a bigger shearpin, my 40 series cruiser is using a nissan winch and PTO shaft(s) with a 8mm shearpin and that pulls real strong without busting shearpins but I'm also pretty famiular with my winch and know when its working hard and know when to back off no question a Hydraulic setup would be good but you'd have to spend a shitload more than what a PTO winch would cost to get it setup with a big pump and a million litres of hydraulic fluid and all the rest of the shit you need to get it working effectively.

To clarify the forward/reverse PTO question most toyota PTOs are engage/disengage giveing you 5 forward speeds to spool in and reverse to spool out and believe me spooling out in reverse gear is like watching paint dry... especially in a diesel the forward/reverse PTO's let you spool in using your 5 forward gears and you can also spool out using your 5 forward gears ie: put the pto in reverse, shove the truck in 5th and stand on the gas and watch the cable spool out

theres a thread somewhere in the archives clint did about the pto winch he stuck on his Prado

[Jerry]

jase (CCS) might have some pto's worth giving him a pm

[Crash bandicoot]

from experience get a tractor. you'll end up stretching your chassis one way or another or twisting it and then you'll be needing a car-o-liner straightener, not a winch

IF you are absoulutley dead keen on dragging 4-5- 8 ton logs with a ute/ winch configuration i suggest buying an old hilux, strip the deck off it reinforcing the chassi limit the rear axle compression and then mount the winch and frame on the back. similar to a skidder. the down force pulling with engine up front will provide much better traction then a front mount.

[SMOKEY]

Hi John,put a winch on the Prado by all means but hauling logs to make a buck , to slow and you will wreck gear, tried that forty years ago with an old Landy and a capstan winch . My suggestion would be to get enough logs cut and prep and get a local contractor or the farmer may even do it for a bit of firewood to skid the logs to where you can handle them, might cost a bit but be cheaper in the long run. you can shift a lot quickly with the right gear. I know you started doing the firewood to fend off the BLACKDOG but it's bloody hard to make money at it, I did it for years and made pocket money , but if you really did the sums I don't think there would be much in it. Any way what ever profit I made it's all going to the -------

BACK BASHER NOW,

FITZY.

[tomsoffroad]

fabricating for a company TomsOffroad used to work for

Who would that be?

Tom

[Suza]

Go PTO. I regularly haul logs with my Safari PTO and its brillant. I do every thing at idle and if it stalls I slap asnatch block on. I also have a friend who has a Safari PTO that he runs of a hydrolic motor which he powers from a line coming of his powersteer pump, not fast but it is effective

[IcedJohnno]

Some interesting replies and valid points.
Please keep the info coming, tis really useful.

Comments, questions and answers in order of posting

Rok
Useful point re electric winch control. I have experienced the challenges of a engine driven winch when operating a Cat D4 on my own. Can be a little hairy!
Thanks for the compliments re my skillset. I sometimes forget that

Would be keen to see your trailer setup, as I'm planning a redesign of my trailer before the year ends.

Philux
Thanks for the stats on your 9000 lb version. Useful.
Whist my truck is 12 v, it has 2 batteries. Would be a pain to set up a 24v system as well.

Jezza Sausage
Yep as I thought it sounds like PTO is better than electric for reliability. You say they are stronger? So a 8000 lb PTO is capable of more? What pull is a Toyota PTO capable of developing?

Most likely I will be winching small amounts but lots of different logs per hr. (Tis clearing a way through a clear-felled and very jumbled forest to get to the right type of trees which are still standing.)

Heath the Rat 40
Yep the saddle is getting polished
Tis great to have a relatively stress free job that pays OK. One that I can see the results of, at the end of each day.
Am welding up diggers, trucks, land reclaimation/consolidation screws etc.

Will have plenty of Bluegum for next season, got a lot already. Also Oregon and Old man Pine.


Mudlva
Thanks Rohan
Good technical info here.
If there is money to be made I will end up going down the heavier gear mode. Currently it is way beyond my resources and wood income potential.
I have some plans, so we will wait and see


Sig & Red-Devil
Thanks, I hear you

Marty
Cheers for the info on the advantages of the reverse PTO output. What did these come out on?
I will check out Clints thread.
Only 2 PTO set ups on Tardme at the mo!

Jerry - Mr In LOVE Do tell us more!
Cheers I will contact Jase


Crash Bandicoot
I hear you re stretching the chassis. Thanks.
I have no plans on hauling big logs any distance. My intention is to clear away the jumble of clear felling, in order to get to these BG trees. Possibly then maybe swing the logs around if I need to before cutting them. If the Prado looses purchase I will create a ground push system that reacts directly on the winch mount.

If need be, I may have access to some heavy machinery. However if I can do without, then I will.

Smokey
Wisdom as ever!
$$$ are a maximum of a 3rd that I earn as a contractor driving a welder. I have however been missing the outdoors and freedom the hard physical gives my brain...
Depending on whether I can gain access to these trees, and what they will get dropped for, will drive which way I go regarding removal.
I've known all about backbashers since my Dad had to carry me off the seat of a mountain grader hauled behind a BT6 'dozer when I was 12! Couldn't move and still suffer, so am really careful these days. Still gets to me a couple of times a year though...

Tom
I'm working for Doug at ENC
We went to school together and he did his apprenticeship working for my Dad. Seems a nice circle...
The boys say Gidday

Suza
Yep I plan on using snatch blocks if need be.
Already using big dozer ones now along with 200 metres of dia28mm polyprop rope, along with a large ground anchor for changing rope angles when hauling logs. Yes I haul from both sides of my Chassis.

Thanks for all your comments and keep them coming please.

[tomsoffroad]

Tom
I'm working for Doug at ENC
We went to school together and he did his apprenticeship working for my Dad. Seems a nice circle...
The boys say Gidday

Good shit Excellent crew to work for I really value the time I spent at ENC.
Building the Trikes next door for Jimmy tought me to be artistic, working for Doug tought me to be accurate.

[callum007]

I know you've been flooded with useful advise. I'm with Rohan on this. Hydro's all the way. If your happy to scrounge, beg and offer the right people beer. I doubt your hydro winch setup would cost much more than a tidy PTO setup.
If you have the time and energy to do it yourself and be resourseful. I just copied a $5k logsliptter for $1.4k there was half a pallet of beer in that one.

I import chinese hydraulics and could possibly help out if you want.
But the likes of machinery wreckers can be very useful http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/trucks/parts-accessories/auction-533488830.htm
This one is free http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/trucks/other/auction-532305614.htm

[IcedJohnno]

Tom
Yeah they are all good guys.
Good to get back on the tools, I'm enjoying it.

I see yr artistic side, tis something I enjoy myself.
A few years ago I made the big flaming copper bowl that was used for both of the EQ memorial services, and before that had been at the Dux. Forming that 2mm copper took some heating!

Callum
Would love to see some pics of your splitter.
Have a few ideas of one I want to make myself.
Yes hydro would be nice and thanks for the offer of help. The timing I think is not quite right yet.

I had seen that winch but figured I would need a digger to power it.

Would love that recovery truck! 8x8, winches and Hiab.... Arh the dreams of how I could get that stuck! Getting that into these trees would be like the Russian 8x8 trials!

[Jerry]

what about a combo trailer with a log splitter and a bigass winch?, motor powers pto or hydro / splitter, tow it where you need. or a winch on your firewood trailer

[De-Ranged]

Having spent more than a few yrs logging and having a resumble engineering ability
my advice is forget any ideas of this you will trash anything you build.... why do you think that logging spec is tougher than any thing else
my advice buy a cheap skidder an old tree farmer or clark some thing shouldn't be too hard to find something for less than 10k
Or easier would be to talk to the local self loader about getting a load or two of pulp to your yard at a cost of around $45 a ton

[SMOKEY]

Yeah Reece , you and I on the same line of thought and I don't think Ice man would argue with us ------ but and there is a big BUT ----- Johno needs to get out and turn the Big Black Dog into a cuddly SPOODLE and if that means stirring the grey matter or torturing his muscles then ORE brotherhood is here to help, and the next years winter trip could do with another trailer load of ------

FIREWOOD,

FITZY.

[kbjj]

Hey John, lets work out a day where we can put my electric winch to test in your said senerio. Will let you know if it's going to do what you want

[slidenyo]

Having spent more than a few yrs logging and having a resumble engineering ability
my advice is forget any ideas of this you will trash anything you build.... why do you think that logging spec is tougher than any thing else
my advice buy a cheap skidder an old tree farmer or clark some thing shouldn't be too hard to find something for less than 10k
Or easier would be to talk to the local self loader about getting a load or two of pulp to your yard at a cost of around $45 a ton

with this chap, even an old hough loader would be an option as they run diff lock and are pretty capable in the shit, a set of chains would also be a good idea as clearfell will stab your tires sooner or later,
or stump up and by a small bully

[basics]

saw this on facebook and thought you firewood boys would like this

[IcedJohnno]

Classic shot!
I doubt the HiLift generates much splitting power and wood be bloody slow!
The stove looks kickarse and I do like using the old Bridgeport mills like in the background. These days I have a Kondia that's about another 500 kilos bigger and has traffic lights too!

Am currently reco-ing my splitter. With modern seals and a shorter piston turned up I am getting another 31.5mm of stroke. Will be bloody useful, as the ram has always been too short and recently has run out of grunt after 1/2 an hours work. Old fibre lipseals had split circumferentially.
Even managed to score enough mint 2nd hand oil to replace mine for Zip! Has been filtered since removal and I know the factory maintenance regime where it came from. Yay!

[IcedJohnno]

Reece
I get what you say. I repair logging gear for living amongst other things. Also do lots of maintenance for a fibreboard mill. So i see what's required.
Fitzy hit the nail on the head with what this is about for me.
A means to get the hard physical yards in to combat my depression and to exercise and challenge my brain to overcome the associated problems with extracting this timber.
With the splitting gear that I've got my throughput is such that the profits don't warrant a lot of $ outlay. And I sure can't afford even an old Hough, let alone a Clark!
Hence the challenge of finding ways to get the timber out without stuffing what I've got.
Getting some loads dropped in, has always been on my plan. Costs down here seem to be about double what you are suggesting.

Cheers t Iceman