OSH is pretty much made up of the following components:
* Induction - introduce new employees/contractors/visitors to the worksite and roughly identifying the hazards that they may come across.
*Training - providing training to those that are exposed to certain hazards on an ongoing basis as part of their job to minimise the risk of that hazard causing injury
*Equipment - provide adequate safety equipment to those that are exposed to certain hazards that the safety equipment will minimise the risk of that hazard causing injury
*Hazard identification - regularly survey a site for potential hazards and record them in a hazard register
*Hazard elimination/minimisation - remove hazards that can be removed and minimise those that are always there
This is just a basic overview of the OSH regulations and there is a lot more to it than that. But basically, if all (or as many as practicable) of those things have been done then an employer is going to be pretty much safe from (serious) prosecution. As long as you can show that you have taken steps to MINIMISE the hazards to your employees (you can never eliminate all hazards) then OSH can not really dump on you too badly.
Another interesting point is that in 2004 the OSH regulations were ammended to make employees accountable for their own negligence. For example, if a labourer has been provided with a safety harness on a building site and that person fails to wear it, they can be prosecuted personally for causing a hazard to themselves and to others.
So, as long as trip leaders and people organising a quick jaunt do a quick drivers briefing (induction), equipment check for things like tow hooks (equipment), offer some advice to new comers on where not to go and what not to do (training), insist on suitable equipment like tow hooks, recovery equipment, etc that will minimise the risk to themselves and others (hazard minimisation), then they SHOULD be fairly safe from prosecution when someone does something silly. Note that that last sentence was not exhaustive, just a rough outline.
Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the OSH rubbish either. However, it does get people THINKING about the possibility that what they are doing is potentially dangerous and can have risks and consequences. The same needs to happen with most recreational activities because they are generally dangerous.
Here's an example of a stupid situation that could have been avoided by some simple and obvious forethought and planning. I am a volunteer member of the Mana Coastguard. About 2 weeks ago we had a callout at about 7:30pm where a couple of guys had gone out diving on their 14ft boat. One guy went down and got a bag of Kina, came back up and gave it to the other guy in the boat. He went back down and came up with another catch... but there was no boat to be found. He had to swim to shore (it took him an hour against similar currents to what Robert Hewitt faced). By the time he raised the alarm it was pitch black and the wind was getting up. The guy on the boat had:
* no VHF radio
* no cellphone
* no flares
* no torch (or any form of lighting)
* no way of signalling at all
* no backup propulsion (not even a paddle)
It took us a couple of hours of searching the coast before the rescue helicopter spotted him washed up on the coast alive and well a couple of nautical miles downwind. For all we knew we could have steamed past him as he was heading out into the Cook Strait. And goodness only knows what could have happened to his mate if he couldn't get to shore... not everyone can survive 3 days in the water!
I guess my main point is don't be scared off by the rules and the need to take a few precautions. It doesn't stop us all from having fun and enjoying ourselves, it just means that a good day out is less likely to turn into a really really bad day out (in terms of safety as well as liability) beacause everyone is aware and thinking about the risks/dangers that are always going to be a part of this recreation.
EVERY OE MEMBER SHOULD READ THIS!!!
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billyvanboheman
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Christchurch
Very well put Mark.
It goes along with what I was looking at putting together which was to keep it simple.
My view of the planning a trip section of the ORE Forum was just that, don’t clog it up with rules and politics, it will as has become apparent only deter people from letting everyone know what they are planning to do.
As you have put so well Mark if we take reasonable steps to advise all participants of what to expect and what's expected of them it SHOULD continue to be a fun and interesting part of what we do.
My only addition is to suggest that at the advising on the forum stage, the vehicle requirements and skill levels required are made very clear from the beginning.
As a recent addition to the forum and its trips, I can say that without this opportunity I would not have had the chance to learn from what I have read and observed.
My experience so far has been wonderful and I have learnt heaps in a very short time frame, including how to protect our sport by not endangering the environment we need to participate in it.
If this opportunity is lost due to the fear of prosecution it will be a very big set back.
All I can finish with is again KEEP IT SIMPLE
It goes along with what I was looking at putting together which was to keep it simple.
My view of the planning a trip section of the ORE Forum was just that, don’t clog it up with rules and politics, it will as has become apparent only deter people from letting everyone know what they are planning to do.
As you have put so well Mark if we take reasonable steps to advise all participants of what to expect and what's expected of them it SHOULD continue to be a fun and interesting part of what we do.
My only addition is to suggest that at the advising on the forum stage, the vehicle requirements and skill levels required are made very clear from the beginning.
As a recent addition to the forum and its trips, I can say that without this opportunity I would not have had the chance to learn from what I have read and observed.
My experience so far has been wonderful and I have learnt heaps in a very short time frame, including how to protect our sport by not endangering the environment we need to participate in it.
If this opportunity is lost due to the fear of prosecution it will be a very big set back.
All I can finish with is again KEEP IT SIMPLE
1989 LWB Isuzu Bighorn, Intercooled 4JB1T, Ball Joint flip, Torsion bar wind, 3 inch stainless homebuilt snorkel,1/2 done electric fan mod,front sway bar quick disconnects, 15x8 ROH White Spokes,33x12.5x15 Hankooks.
This thread reads well and makes a great read, but the reality is if you don’t like it then do not do it, people must take individual accountability for themselves. A Trip leader is “god’ on the trip in my view and he/she is only a guide in reality. Graded trips is the best option and leaders set a standard to what you think is needed, then stick to that call. Making decisions is easy having the guts to carry it out is what true leadership is really about.
There are two very good posts on this thread that people should read and understand they are by Mark & Leithfield. Taking all possible steps to identify, avoid, eliminate and minimise risk and hazards is what it is all about. Then is something does go wrong it is about agreeing a plan and everyone sticking to it. That way everyone gets home safe and that is what it is all really about. People think recreational 4WD activity is all about ‘Trucks’ how big how fast etc. One day you will actually mature and grow up and find it is about ‘where these toys can take you!’
Trip Leaders stick to your guns. A well prepared 4WD vehicle with good tyres reasonable ground clearance and driven by a person exercising good skills and good common sense and judgement, will go OK.
So it makes sense to Identify, then Remove the Hazard! the hazard may well be a person!
Happy 4Wheeling
Paul
There are two very good posts on this thread that people should read and understand they are by Mark & Leithfield. Taking all possible steps to identify, avoid, eliminate and minimise risk and hazards is what it is all about. Then is something does go wrong it is about agreeing a plan and everyone sticking to it. That way everyone gets home safe and that is what it is all really about. People think recreational 4WD activity is all about ‘Trucks’ how big how fast etc. One day you will actually mature and grow up and find it is about ‘where these toys can take you!’
Trip Leaders stick to your guns. A well prepared 4WD vehicle with good tyres reasonable ground clearance and driven by a person exercising good skills and good common sense and judgement, will go OK.
So it makes sense to Identify, then Remove the Hazard! the hazard may well be a person!
Happy 4Wheeling
Paul
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mroffroader
- Hard Yaka
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- Location: Lower Hutt WELLINGTON :D
- Contact:
access4WD wrote:This thread reads well and makes a great read, but the reality is if you don’t like it then do not do it, people must take individual accountability for themselves. A Trip leader is “god’ on the trip in my view and he/she is only a guide in reality. Graded trips is the best option and leaders set a standard to what you think is needed, then stick to that call. Making decisions is easy having the guts to carry it out is what true leadership is really about.
There are two very good posts on this thread that people should read and understand they are by Mark & Leithfield. Taking all possible steps to identify, avoid, eliminate and minimise risk and hazards is what it is all about. Then is something does go wrong it is about agreeing a plan and everyone sticking to it. That way everyone gets home safe and that is what it is all really about. People think recreational 4WD activity is all about ‘Trucks’ how big how fast etc. One day you will actually mature and grow up and find it is about ‘where these toys can take you!’
Trip Leaders stick to your guns. A well prepared 4WD vehicle with good tyres reasonable ground clearance and driven by a person exercising good skills and good common sense and judgement, will go OK.
So it makes sense to Identify, then Remove the Hazard! the hazard may well be a person!
Happy 4Wheeling
Paul
totally agree with you there 100%
80 series tow bus towing a redneck ass vitara 
Gessh you guys do like to make things complicated
The OSH act and all its amendments dosn't apply to us... it applies in a customer, client or employer employee, and as stated above an employee employee (and to date no one has been prosocuted on the last one
) relationship where there is finacial gain!
I deal with this every day I go to work as I'm part of the "target" work force, a logging contractor second highest ACC rate for those who understand 10%
it is too the point where I know the local inspector on a first name basis and I'm lucky he is a nice guy 
but I follow all the rules and there intent, when they apply
What I've stated before is our worry is neglagence, criminal neglagence where someone is hurt becouse we did something wrong! or we failed to warn them, and the chances of that one becoming a problem is faint as a driver you are driving your own vehical and are responsable for your own actions if you chose to follow, that is your choice you are ultimatly responsable not the guy who has gone through before hand, not the guy who is leading
The only time there is a onuse (spelling
) on anyone else is on an orgainised trip, that is something else other than what is discussed (not gona happen as a trip leader will be discribing what the trip is about ) and before you start getting anal the weather is an "act of god" your not responsable for unless you ignored any weather warnings
The other is an instructional event where the driver is placing themselves in the control of the instructor now I know I wouldn't push someone that far they could die
Quite frankly I'm starting to wonder what I've got myself into with all this rules and regs talk
Cheers Reece
The OSH act and all its amendments dosn't apply to us... it applies in a customer, client or employer employee, and as stated above an employee employee (and to date no one has been prosocuted on the last one
) relationship where there is finacial gain!
I deal with this every day I go to work as I'm part of the "target" work force, a logging contractor second highest ACC rate for those who understand 10%
it is too the point where I know the local inspector on a first name basis and I'm lucky he is a nice guy but I follow all the rules and there intent, when they apply
What I've stated before is our worry is neglagence, criminal neglagence where someone is hurt becouse we did something wrong! or we failed to warn them, and the chances of that one becoming a problem is faint as a driver you are driving your own vehical and are responsable for your own actions if you chose to follow, that is your choice you are ultimatly responsable not the guy who has gone through before hand, not the guy who is leading
The only time there is a onuse (spelling
) on anyone else is on an orgainised trip, that is something else other than what is discussed (not gona happen as a trip leader will be discribing what the trip is about ) and before you start getting anal the weather is an "act of god" your not responsable for unless you ignored any weather warnings
The other is an instructional event where the driver is placing themselves in the control of the instructor now I know I wouldn't push someone that far they could die
Quite frankly I'm starting to wonder what I've got myself into with all this rules and regs talk
Cheers Reece
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Leithfield
- Hard Yaka
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:00 pm
De-Ranged wrote: The OSH act and all its amendments dosn't apply to us
That is entirely correct De-Ranged, however the point succinctly advanced is that the OSH process (risk identification, risk management, etc) has parallel advantage for adaptively managing one's culpability re criminal negligence/liability.
Criminal negligence (the breach of a duty to take care) is a law of Torts. There is no completely satisfactory definition of a tort; Sir John Salmond described a tort as "a civil wrong for which the remedy is a common law action for unliquidated damages and which is not exclusively the breach of a contract or the breach of a trust or other merely equitable obligation".
Generally, criminal liability requires not only the doing of a prohibited act but also either an intention to do the harm prescribed or recklessness whether it ensues. In other words, there must be a guilty mind ('mens rea') as well as an unlawful act. There are, however, many exceptions to this in New Zealand, especially in the case of regulatory offences. Moreover, some crimes, notably manslaughter, are based on negligence.
This country differs from most others in that the test of criminal negligence is, in many cases, the same as that for civil negligence – failure to observe the standard of care of a reasonable man – and even a slight degree of negligence can give rise to criminal liability.
Kevin Dougherty
O.R.E 4x4 Assoc Inc
P.R.O Southern.
Last edited by Leithfield on Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Umm its not about making sure that we comply with osh, its more about making sure people are aware of the dangers out there, minimising this, especially with newbies who may not be aware of things, the last thing anyone wants is an incident on a trip.....which might be a good mate....
We don't have to be anal about it either, just practical and with common sense, if trip leaders (people organising & running trips) know what can happen and how to deal with things then that is surely a bonus.
The idea here is that its voluntary for std forum members, a number of which seem keen to take up some form of training.
We don't have to be anal about it either, just practical and with common sense, if trip leaders (people organising & running trips) know what can happen and how to deal with things then that is surely a bonus.
The idea here is that its voluntary for std forum members, a number of which seem keen to take up some form of training.
That is entirely correct De-Ranged, however the point succinctly advanced is that the OSH process (risk identification, risk management, etc) has parallel advantage for adaptively managing one's culpability re criminal negligence/liability.
That's right. I was not saying that OSH applies to us directly... just that the process can be applied in a basic way to achieve safety and limited liability... which is what the thread was about to begin with.
Another aspect of OSH is self regulation. Here is a quote I found in some article:
[quote]“To Government, the message is to resist the impulse to impose regulation as a first response to problems however minor.
“To industry groups the message is to earn credibility and the respect of stakeholders in order to effectively operate a light-handed self-regulatory regime.â€
I tend to over use them a bit. So what rules and regs apply when a competition event is being run, rather than a group of guys/gals getting together and heading out on a run? Can rules for the latter be extended "AS A GUIDELINE" from the former.
I agree with Deranged (re OSH applications). But if theres going to be rules, why not adapt the rules currently in place as a "duty of care" so to speak.
Personal disclaimers are bollocks. Why??? Some dude turns up to a organised event without say, towhooks (which has been stated on this forum before as being a requirement....) , or is generally in an unsafe condition, and is told he cant participate.... unless he signs a disclaimer. Why would anyone want him to sign a disclaimer? If the wagon is not properly set up, or in a dangerous condition, the driver is not only a danger or liability to himself, but to others....... the onus of responsibility should not only lie with the driver (which they do accept with a disclaimer) but with the others in the group that the person is driving with. If they aint happy, then he/she goes home....
Then of course the question arises - "Who is qualified with the authority to tell someone else what they can and cant do" (which i think was touched on earleir in this thread.)
If someone is part of a club, and the club has a) rules, and, b) a voted council/committee, and that person agrees to be a member of said club, then they automatically agree to the rules and elected hierarchael structure.
If they dont like it and dont want to abide by the rules in place (towhooks, certs or whatever requirements the club may have) then they also have the option to leave.
I agree with Deranged (re OSH applications). But if theres going to be rules, why not adapt the rules currently in place as a "duty of care" so to speak.
Personal disclaimers are bollocks. Why??? Some dude turns up to a organised event without say, towhooks (which has been stated on this forum before as being a requirement....) , or is generally in an unsafe condition, and is told he cant participate.... unless he signs a disclaimer. Why would anyone want him to sign a disclaimer? If the wagon is not properly set up, or in a dangerous condition, the driver is not only a danger or liability to himself, but to others....... the onus of responsibility should not only lie with the driver (which they do accept with a disclaimer) but with the others in the group that the person is driving with. If they aint happy, then he/she goes home....
Then of course the question arises - "Who is qualified with the authority to tell someone else what they can and cant do" (which i think was touched on earleir in this thread.)
If someone is part of a club, and the club has a) rules, and, b) a voted council/committee, and that person agrees to be a member of said club, then they automatically agree to the rules and elected hierarchael structure.
If they dont like it and dont want to abide by the rules in place (towhooks, certs or whatever requirements the club may have) then they also have the option to leave.
/| , [____],
l----L -OlllllllO-
()_) ()_)-----)_)
KEEP'N JEEP'N!
l----L -OlllllllO-
()_) ()_)-----)_)
KEEP'N JEEP'N!
Some dude turns up to a organised event without say, towhooks (which has been stated on this forum before as being a requirement....) , or is generally in an unsafe condition, and is told he cant participate.... unless he signs a disclaimer
OK in my view the person organising the trip (or trip leader) clearly states the trip requirements eg proper hooks etc, if some wally turns up in a Rav4 expecting to do a trip then you deal with it at the trip start. likewise someone with no hooks you don't let on the trip if you don't want them there (and you have stated in the pretrip stuff).
Last edited by Jerry on Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gomulletgo
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Amberley / North Canterbury
I always wanted to be Fozzie Bear, is that cool with everyone?
Ooooookay, WTF is "Fozzie Bear"
Good posts people, lot's to read. I don't have anything intelligent to say (at the moment and in general). Does'nt look to me like we have a resolution yet though eh?
Keep up the good work. Nothing from mike yet. Must be busy with his rover.
MULLET
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Moriarty
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- Location: The newly formed Nation of OKATO
khoshar wrote:Well that spud peeler is approved by the arthritis foundation so surely they wouldnt send me wrong, as for the steel caps, I just hope I dont drop a spud on them and chop a couple of toes off, you have to wonder about the state of this country when I just about need to sign an indemnity form to cross the road, how does this work when you help someone out at the river and they decide to join in with you for the rest of the trip, do we have to get them to fill out a form first?
Bluntly, and succinctly.
YES
and GET THE MONEY FOR THE INSURANCE OR U NOT COMING!!!!
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nuts
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: somewhere arround westcoast offroading usually
trips with not much organisation
some of the best trips ive been on we just went ... no set agender and no set place and they have been gr8 as far a s dammage goes i agree with all care and no responcibility ... but in saying that help guide and teach or learn from each other to make it as safe as u can ... im off for a 4 day trip tomorrow and like i sed i have not set places or distance exept being in ch ch tuesday and i will have a blast as i always do and anyone we meet along the way can join in and leave as they wish lol so happy motoring ppl 
people think i have a problem with insanity .... i dont i enjoy every minute ..... 0278900597