why is IFS better than solid axle offroad

[derk]

every second thread I read there always seems to end up with a post in it somewhere explaining that your a goober or something and you know shit about suspension and IFS pisses over a solid axle truck then a whole pile of cut and paste shit out of google that doesn't really make much sense to me or seem to have any relevance

I know its all horses for courses and different trucks suit different people and different people do different sorts of offroad driving and have different driving styles but how is it when you start suggesting IFS doesn't rate or compete very well when you start doing harder offroad stuff you can guarantee you'll end up getting shot down

how can a suspension system that has very little in the way of articulation be better, or a system that lowers the diff further to the ground under compression be better, or has less structural strength be better or has little option to stick taller tyres on be any better, I'm talking general production NZ available vehicles here that we do our day to day thrashing around the scrub in not class 1 offroaders or some cool custom yank truck you saw in a thread on pirate

educate me so I can learn some good shit please

[Smurf]

Nothing wrong with IFS off-road, as long as you are aware of its limitations. If you are using the same vehicle on road as a daily and as a 4wd, then I think it is a good compromise as long as you don't expect huge performance off-road. I had an IFS Surf as a daily and it lasted me 8 years as a daily and as a 4WD, went its fair share of places. I now have a Prado, more wheel travel, twin lockers. It isn't as nice to drive as a daily but I accept that as I wanted a more capable 4WD once the Surf died.
I had/have 33 inch tyres on both vehicles. If I wanted the Surf to go Further, I could have thrown a locker and a winch on it but at the time that wasn't necessary for the 4wding we did. Now the lockers and winch get a bit of use. On a more capable(supposedly) 4WD.
I think an IFS 4WD is more than adequate for a lot of people as a 4WD, as not everyone wants to push the boundaries that much. Several IFS vehicles have there own weak points, idlers, etc. But so do solid axle vehicles too.
Horses for courses isn't it. You don't need 35s lockers and a winch with wicked wheel travel to get the family up the river camping.

[drive it ...]

Have a search on utube for Ultra 4's vs rock bouncers. Then try and say that IFS is no good. Or look at the desert racers. Of course those IFS setups probably cost $20,000US.....
IFS on anything common here is designed/built for supermarkets and ski roads, saying a terano or surf is no good is like hating a mini cause you cant sit 3 across on a bench seat and it should be a falcon/kingswood.
IFS keeps wheels on ground better and dosen't shift the vehicle body / centre of gravity around. But a beam is better as its easy to mod for more lift and travel, and its cheap and simple. Like most of us.

[J_Dub]

Horses for courses is exactly the point..
We all drive what we drive simply because its what we have chosen and we like it... End of story.

There is just a couple folk on here who drive ifs that feel the need to continually promote their chosen vehicle due to hidden insecurities that they will never admit..

Bit like small man syndrome..

[churchill]

Very interesting topic.

Upside of independent.

One of the major advantages of independent suspension is the reduced unsprung weight. This means it's easier to control wheel travel allowing the wheel to be kept in contact with the ground more especially where the up and down motion is larger and faster.

Another bonus is that if one wheel hits a bump there is much less effect on the other wheel where a solid axle will transfer this motion to the other wheel which can reduce traction on that wheel.

The clearence under the diff can be made greater but the down side is that it can also change. You also have to realise that if your hung up on the diff with IFS both wheels can still be on the ground where as a solid axle will have a tendency to lift one off.


Downside of independent.

Production independent suspension especially on the front axle suffers from reduced articulation due to space constraints allowing for only short control arms.

Complexity, more joints required and high articulation cv joints still need more development to get their strength up at high angles.


More development needs to be done on independent suspension systems for extreme off road use before they can be ruled out. Personally I see big gains to be made over a solid axle for almost all applications off road but the difficulty is that there seems to be so many more geometry options that it will be a long process getting through them all.

Here's an interesting independent suspension buggy

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/977540-godzilla-ifs-buggy.html

[Crash bandicoot]

Ifs has the ability to give your front end more ground clearance relative to the axle /diff housing, however articulation is more limited.

Solid axle or beam will allow for greater articulaton, however limit ground clearance relative to the axle/diff housing.

With the advancement in design of i.f.s and its components in the last twenty years compared to beam axle which has been phased out and no longer produced by car manufacturers, it is enevatable that the future lays in i.f.s. ...to the point that some ifs systems are stronger then there late 80`s/90`s solid axles....

To say one suffers small mans syndrome jdub is to be in denial. Ive owned ifs nissan toyota isuzu and mitsi...along with solid axle toyota nissan isuzu. And would take i f s nissan any day followed equally by mitsi.

[Mr Revhead]

It is funny what some people think of certain set ups. I have a Mu. IFS and leaf spring rear. A lot of experts have told me thats the worst combo you can get. Now I'm very much an off road n00b, but the 2 days I spent out with a Safari and a Cherokee proved to me the Mu more than holds it own off road, and bests them both on road imo.
It can also tow Safaris and Cherokees


However if we were to start throwing 35" tyres and head for the extreme stuff I think it might reach it's limits sooner. Luckily for me that's not my aim at this stage.


and yes, Cherokees and Safaris can tow Mu's just as easy!

[rokhound]

Everyone above is defending the IFS setup.
For most people, IFS is more than adequate for the type of 4wding they do.
It's major limitations in factory OME form are that it is weak when compared to a solid axle. This is due to that fact that is requires so many moving parts (ball joints, cv's etc). As mentioned, it has very low unsprung weight versus a solid axle, so is much easier to make perform on the road (which is where all the popular 4wd manufacturers design their vehicles to perform).

Above some mention that independent wheel travel is far better than a solid equivalent. While true in theory, in practice a solid axle has a far better dynamic off road than IFS. IFS relies on the shock/spring combo to force the wheel down, and impact to force the wheel up. It is very hard to calculate the articulation this will achieve before it unloads and throws the vehicle.
With solid, the wheels are forcing against each other in an opposing fashion.
This makes the traction supplied much greater and the ability to control how the axle behaves much easier.
As a rule, solid is a much stronger as well due to the less moving parts, and before any muppet puts their hand up and says how they ripped off a front wheel etc on a solid axle rig, think about how your IFS rig would have fared.......(my '98 playdo biffed off an the entire passengers A arm due to ball joint failure on a sealed road at 30ish kmph).

To sumerise the above, if are not all that hardcore (and a lot of mud bunny's think they are, but they are not ) an IFS setup with some traction aids will be more than adequate. If however you are into a specific type of wheeling, (competition, hard core adventure, rocks, etc) then the ability to tune your solid axle and the extra strength it gives you, can not be easily be replicated by any other type of front end set up.

[darinz]

It's always interesting to see what arguments people use in this debate.

Firstly, if strength is equal then IFS is heavier.
For the same amount of travel with the same basic strength (spline count etc) then IFS is going to be weaker due to high cv angle.
IFS allows for better ground clearance with the same tyre size.
Solid axle keeps the wheels on the ground better and due to the arc the wheels follow keeps more of the tyre in contact with the ground. (normally)
Given the same suspension then IFS will handle high speed better.

So which is better? Really! How long is a piece of string or is Ford better than Holden?
Some of the top Ultra 4 guys are going back to solid axle from their mega dollar IFS setups. So unlimited budget and they don't want IFS anymore. The reasons are to do with total weight and with big tyres the unsprung weight issue really isn't important.
I have solid axles and thought I'd need to look at IFS but when you can hit washouts at over 200 and not even worry about them then I'll stay with simple and reliable. It also means that when I chuck the Simex on and go play in the mud it is easily strong enough and I don't have to worry about all the extra cv boots etc.

But that's just my opinion and really there is no answer to the question. It's like whether a Landcruiser is better than a Safari.

[slidenyo]

interesting that those that would bomb other threads with their opinion have steered clear of here
I've had both , I like solid axles.
Just my personal opinion

[De-Ranged]

There are the usual comments above, weight, complexity, diff movement in relation to the tyres etc

Right no one has talked about building and tuning suspension, strength and driveline mechanics aside so this is just about how your suspension can be setup for a particular style of offroad driving
Beam axle suspension hinges north/south in the vehicle where as Independent suspension hinges east/west this means they have different handling characteristics and opportunities
Lets say you want a rock crawler or a trials truck that does well in sidelings... a beam axle works better due to the north/south thing allowing you to raise the rollcenter height, raising the tipping point of the body on the suspension... you can't do this with Independent
But Independent allows you to tune Camber, Caster, Toe in/out, even wheel track gain and these can all be tuned adjust through suspension travel.... at low speed this isn't much of a gain but the fast you go the more this is going to benefit... add a bit of extra complexity in shock valving and sway bars and you match the rollcenter advantage of beam axle

Over all performance goes with Independent
But bang for buck Beam axles will dominate the club truck scene due to strength

[Suza]

The question of which is the better set up is entirely dependant on what the owner wants to achieve.
For example when we brought our first 4x4 I chose to have IFS as we wanted a 4x4 that would have great on road manners and handling whilst still being able to perform off road on the trips that we wanted we to do which at that time was limited to tracks that were of if an easy to moderate nature and we were enjoying doing a lot of multi day touring stuff. We replaced the worn factory suspension with a maxtrax kit and a 50mm lift did the ball joint flip in the front and ran 31" MTs and it worked really well with the limiting factor being that it would lift a front wheel due to down travel. As we grew so did the range of tracks we drove and with that came the 33" tyre's and at this point the IFS started to become a problem with broken tie rods, c.v's, and bushes disintegrating now I can here some of you going he drove it to hard all jandel and no technique and used crap parts. The simple answer to these is that we worked hard not to damage the vehicle as it was our only car and being rural we depended on it and we only ever brought reputable parts as I don't belive in spending time and money on something just so I have to go and fix it again.
So in the end we moved on to a solid axle 4x4. With this we run 33's and now drive a much wider range of tracks (moving up the scale more than down) and after 3 years of hard work (not only recreational but also working) the only issue that we have had is replacing the front axle seals. Now the on road handling is not as good but to be honest its still pretty good and much better than my early cars, but the off road performance is far superior to IFS. On both the 4x4's we ran/run an open front diff and I think that this is an important part of the argument yes we could have put a locker in the IFS front diff and yes that would have made a difference when we were lifting a wheel, but it won't have made it stronger
I also believe the following
1, 4x4's will all go to IFS as the first buyers are more interested in comfort and road handling than those who own it after them and the car company's are really only interested in the first buyer not those of us that follow.
2, for speed IFS is great hence forth why those desert racers and the American army HUMVEES use it you
The other change we have made is that now we also have a Carrola
This is my thoughts feel free to disagree

[zed]

put a locker in the IFS front diff and yes that would have made a difference when we were lifting a wheel, but it won't have made it stronger

I own a series 1 pajero club truck, with a low pinion front IFS setup. Before I put a front locker in, lifting a front wheel basically spelt 2wd, as the lifted wheel spun and the contacting wheel had no drive. Guys in my club with beam axles would negotiate the same spot easier than me, due to the greater articulation the beam gave them. I should point out that most of our club's trucks are modified, virtually everyone runs Simexes and we do our fair share of hard yaka tracks. With some impressive trailer queens (modified trials trucks) there are some very capable vehicles.

Since fitting the front locker however, my trucks capability (and my driving ability ) have really improved, so much so that in most situations i am now on a par with the beam axles boys. With the low pinion front and the small 8" rear diff, I have as much static ground clearance on 33s as an FJ40 on 35s. My truck is an swb and is quite light by comparison to others (which no doubt helps a lot), and I tend to wear a few bushes but havent had any major breakages.

My truck is also quite underpowered (4 cyl non turbo petrol ), but learning from the other more experienced guys I have come to realise it's more about how you drive than what you drive. My little engine also helps with the lack of breakages...I dont think I'd want to run the same setup with 400hp, but looking at the cv size the bell on a V6 pajero is huge anyway so it might take it. There is a guy in our club with a supercharged holden v6 3.8 in a pajero, also on 33s.

So in terms of real world performance, my IFS setup with a front locker lets my light, underpowered truck keep up with guys running beam axled trucks in most of our club's runs. If I wanted to have more power or do tough truck events I would swap to a beam axle. But for what I want do to my lil IFS paj is a very capable off road truck.

Just my 2c

[Mehrts]

I've owned an IFS Hilux and now run a modified Hilux with a solid front end.

I started off with a stock standard 2000 Hilux which was my first vehicle. It came with a small set of muddies and a winch. Naturally, I got out and about with this ute and soon found some limitations such as ground clearance. So a suspension lift & body lift to allow me to run 33's.

I was aware of the smaller and weaker front diff, so I used the go fast pedal sparingly. I never managed to blow up any front end driveline components in the 3 years that I had that ute because I knew that jumping out and winching was far better than trying to scramble up something, making a mess out of it, and potentially ruining the vehicle.

However, I was wanting to do the harder tracks where I couldn't comfortably keep up due to losing traction from the limited down travel of the front end. Sure, I could have spent the money and thrown lockers at it, but I knew full well that the front suspension & diff would remain to be the Achilles heel no matter what.

So I decided to sell the later model Hilux, and with that money "upgrade" into an older, slightly rougher Hilux that was more suited to the harder stuff I was eager to get into. I also bought a daily run around car because it just wasn't practical to do long distance runs with an offroad beast.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with IFS vehicles. They are capable in offroad situations up to a point. This point will have to be decided by the driver at the time. There is no superior suspension choice - they both have their pros and cons. Horses for courses.

I'd say 90% of people who own 4WDs will be more than happy with an IFS vehicle, the majority of these people probably don't even know what suspension setup they have under their vehicles, nor do they care.
The other 10% are people who enjoy going the extra distance knowing that their vehicles are capable of handling anything that is thrown at them.

[lax2wlg]

interesting that those that would bomb other threads with their opinion have steered clear of here

Theres just no point engaging with some guy hiding behind a screenname calling you a goober, or trying to defend yourself against things like 'if are not all that hardcore (and a lot of mud bunny's think they are, but they are not ) an IFS setup with some traction aids will be more than adequate.'

Have a good thread guys

[rokhound]

Theres just no point engaging with some guy hiding behind a screenname calling you a goober, or trying to defend yourself against things like 'if are not all that hardcore (and a lot of mud bunny's think they are, but they are not ) an IFS setup with some traction aids will be more than adequate.'

It is terribly unfortunate that you can be such a (REMOVED) as a lot of the actual information you do supply is solid and sound advice. But I guess a keyboard hero will always be a the little man with the big ego , shame though.

[timmay556]

The below is the most accurate post here
I have owned IFS hilux's, Beam hilux's, IFS Prados, Solid Axel GQ patrols (Shortys and LWB)
BY ####### FARRRRR the most capable I have owned is the LWB patrol. You just crawl over anything you can think of.
Low4, 1st gear (even on All terrain tires) and just sit back and crawl up it.

In my IFS hilux I had to charge everything i went up. Even in the prado (which has a coil spring rear which offers better articulation) I had to charge. Which means more risk of breaking stuff.

In short if you spend more time on road and just dabble in the off road then get anything IFS.

People harp on about 'better diff clearance on IFS' - mate its 2/10ths of stuff all. They neglect to remind you that you still have a full diff in the rear so your front might clear but your balls are going to catch just like anyone else.

If you want to get stuck in go beam front and rear.

(I dont give a #### what they use on sand)

Everyone above is defending the IFS setup.
For most people, IFS is more than adequate for the type of 4wding they do.
It's major limitations in factory OME form are that it is weak when compared to a solid axle. This is due to that fact that is requires so many moving parts (ball joints, cv's etc). As mentioned, it has very low unsprung weight versus a solid axle, so is much easier to make perform on the road (which is where all the popular 4wd manufacturers design their vehicles to perform).

Above some mention that independent wheel travel is far better than a solid equivalent. While true in theory, in practice a solid axle has a far better dynamic off road than IFS. IFS relies on the shock/spring combo to force the wheel down, and impact to force the wheel up. It is very hard to calculate the articulation this will achieve before it unloads and throws the vehicle.
With solid, the wheels are forcing against each other in an opposing fashion.
This makes the traction supplied much greater and the ability to control how the axle behaves much easier.
As a rule, solid is a much stronger as well due to the less moving parts, and before any muppet puts their hand up and says how they ripped off a front wheel etc on a solid axle rig, think about how your IFS rig would have fared.......(my '98 playdo biffed off an the entire passengers A arm due to ball joint failure on a sealed road at 30ish kmph).

To sumerise the above, if are not all that hardcore (and a lot of mud bunny's think they are, but they are not ) an IFS setup with some traction aids will be more than adequate. If however you are into a specific type of wheeling, (competition, hard core adventure, rocks, etc) then the ability to tune your solid axle and the extra strength it gives you, can not be easily be replicated by any other type of front end set up.

[truckingood]

So which is better? Really! How long is a piece of string or is Ford better than Holden?

holdens better

[Checkerhead]

It is terribly unfortunate that you can be such a (REMOVED) as a lot of the actual information you do supply is solid and sound advice.

Agreed.

[Suza]

So which is better? Really! How long is a piece of string or is Ford better than Holden?

holdens better

That it is

[zed]

Pfft...skoda all the way!

[mud_slinger]

this has always been a debate, but each to their own. i drive a ifs and i love it,this is the 2nd ifs i have owned and has a locked front diff now and is even better than the previous ifs with open front. amazing what a locked front end can do vs a open. next rig will probably end up being a beam but til then ifs is still fun and can get places.

[Heath]

Right so thats that sorted.

Neither is better, but each is better suited to different environment. So the answer is neither.

Right now we've sorted that how about the wide tyres versus skinny tyres debate...?

And Holden for the win

[Mr Revhead]

Pfft Holden? Bloody glorified Opels

[Heath]

Pfft Holden? Bloody glorified Opels

I object to my rebadged GM vauxhall being called an opel.

[slidenyo]

interesting who gets upset when these threads are started,
if you bought a truck off the yard in the same weight class with no modifications you'd have to find the solid axle truck is more suited to low speed off road rough stuff, where as the ifs truck would handle higher speed medium terrain.
interested also into lax's unforeseen foresight into other members offroad ability.
personally I grew up at the family limeworks, driving machinery
and then later spreaders around some great hill country,
never rolled one, never got too stuck.
I dare say it wouldn't be just me that's clocked up a couple thousand hours crawling around the hills as a job.
Recreational 4x4ing isn't about what you run , what it costs, or your skill level, it's about getting out and seeking some LIFE

[ToyZuki]

Was this thread started following my "How much is this Hilux worth" thread

Pictures speak a thousand words.





I wouldnt say one is better than the other. I just think they are better for different applications, like racers use IFS in machines worth 10s of thousands. I wldnt say you can only go extreme with solid. As the pics above show, the IFS does have its advantages.

I find it funny when people say oh you have IFS with leaf springs, thats the worst, my truck is solid front and rear so its obviously better. There are 100 different things to take into account to decide a trucks potential.

[stovanovich]

Recreational 4x4ing isn't about what you run , what it costs, or your skill level, it's about getting out and seeking some LIFE

Hear hear

[yeti]

Recreational 4x4ing isn't about what you run , what it costs, or your skill level, it's about getting out and seeking some LIFE

Hear hear

x2...

[zed]

x3

Oh and the winner in the modified class is...