national trials round 5 - dissapointing

[skid]

sorry to say but as a competitor, that had to be one of the worst trials that I have ever competed in. The hazards were dangerous, the marshals didn't show any enthusiasm, there were no prizes, there were competitors allowed to continue with failed rollcages and no one from the host club seemed to give a F**K. most of the competitors had long faces at the end of the day and at least half of the field have a long, hard 2 weeks to repair trucks that should never of been put in a position to write them off. Its my personal opinion, but I know lots competitors feel the same way.

[Rotazuk]

I am a member of the host club , Manukau , and was mashaling for the day .

I believe it is the competitors that have driven the trials to the stage they are now . Trucks are ever increasing in modification and money spent on them . And now I hear there is a court case over a marshalling decision in the previous rally . There in a nut shell is why most marshals would have been quiet on the course . If this is indeeed the case , court case that is , is this not over the top . Again I expect it would be a competitor that has brought the case .

What happened to the age old drive to your abilities . I only play around in the fun trails but still back out of what I am not happy with .

Anyone elses thoughts .

Chris

[Jerry]

There were loads of breakages and DNF's at last years deadwood (in Wellington) and I never heard of any complaints like this???, I have been involved in the last 2 events organising marshalls for this and its not easy to find them or put on an event such as this. I assume you realise the amount of time and effort people put into these events, bear in mind that all these people are volunteers as well.

[Cloggy_NZ]

and at least half of the field have a long, hard 2 weeks to repair trucks that should never of been put in a position to write them off. .

Are you saying you were forced to attempt the course?
Of course not. It is up to the competitors to decide wether or not to attempt a hazard at all, and if attempting a hazard, how far or how hard to take it. If you drive like a nut and break your vehicle in the process then you have no one to blame but yourself.

there were no prizes, there were competitors allowed to continue with failed rollcages

Have to agree with you on this one, both inexcusable if true

[DieselBoy]

Love to hear from other competitors............

Its often the way these sort of competitions go, vehicles get more crazy, the courses get harder to cope, and it becomes a competition based on who's got the most coin.

Similar to F1 and at the other end of the scale the A1.

[monstr]

Sorry to say it but i agree with skid on this one,While its true that nobody holds a gun to there heads and makes them do it when the marsall counts down and says go i think the brain dissingages and the right foot takes over,But as a spectator on the day i thought some of the tracks were downright dangerous,i have never seen so many rollovers ,Alot of them real nasty ones,i also saw competitors allowed to continue with bent and creased roll cagesThat in itself was a major accident waiting to happen and could of cost someone dearly.I think that the organisers are very lucky it didnt rain as i would hate to think of what could of happened on some of the stages set,Maybee the Drivers need to get together and Boycot an event when stages are set like this or do we wait untill someone gets seriously hurt or killed...Just my thoughts...

[mroffroader]

gosh!!!! it doesnt't sound anything like the wellington events.....you get a couple of roll overs (usually just on to their side) but its qite rare almost to see one...and every ones smiling and happy.....even when its pissing down with rain hope you guys can sort it out with the organisers etc

[BrentC]

Sorry to say it but i agree with skid on this one,While its true that nobody holds a gun to there heads and makes them do it when the marsall counts down and says go i think the brain dissingages and the right foot takes over,But as a spectator on the day i thought some of the tracks were downright dangerous,i have never seen so many rollovers ,Alot of them real nasty ones,i also saw competitors allowed to continue with bent and creased roll cagesThat in itself was a major accident waiting to happen and could of cost someone dearly.I think that the organisers are very lucky it didnt rain as i would hate to think of what could of happened on some of the stages set,Maybee the Drivers need to get together and Boycot an event when stages are set like this or do we wait untill someone gets seriously hurt or killed...Just my thoughts...

Keep it up - the course was set by Trials Drivers and approved by the Drivers committee - the roll cages were inspected by NZ4WD Stewards every time a truck went on it's side - nothing to do with Manukau 4wd.

Personally I have no problem not volunteering the 300+ hours spent helping to organise the event and then Marshal all day etc again.


I heard a lot of moaning about rules at the dinner - but nothing about the event - I did notice that no one from the drivers committee stood up to thank Manukau 4wd (although some drivers did personally after and during the event) for the time and effort - 80+ marshals, 6 tractors, 2 diggers - land owner etc etc etc. - so maybe you are right or maybe the drivers are just an ungracious bunch.

[BrentC]

there were no prizes, there were competitors allowed to continue with failed rollcages

Have to agree with you on this one, both inexcusable if true

It isn't true

But - hey - why let facts get in the way of a moan.

I am sure GT Radials will be happy not to have to hand over the set of 5 tyres to the winner of C class. etc etc

[bernie]

just a couple of issues i have exception to, Skid, you cannot know what goes into oganising something like this, (you must be a taker) because if you did, you would no as a fact that after any roll over in this type of event, the truck is checked by a NZ4WD official, nothing what so ever to do with the hosting club period. therefore if thats a fact, we can all disregaurd the "hosting club not giving a f**k" comment. (that must have been for effect) as to the hazards being dangerous, all hazards were set by 2 very recent retired rally drivers and 1 currant driver, all hazards were checked and green stickered by the NZ4WD, if you had been part of any organisation team for such an event in the past, you would know that this is also a fact.
prizes, we all know you dont do it for the prizes, if you did, you would have retired along time ago, anyway this is untrue (lie, bullsh*t). a long time ago, like 9 months (because thats how long this has been in the planing) feed back from the drivers was "we are sick and tired of the usual CRC, batterys, car care products etc as prizes", it was not in the budget to give you all colour TVs and sound systems sorry, so we decided on a major prize for each class and thats what you got. as to your comment on marshal enthusiasm, next time you pull up to the blues, try just once changing your own atitude and see what happens, because from what i read above it sucks, im sorry to say. if these types of bullsh*t comments are to continue, them some real good people are going to be lost to these types of events and you will be left with running it on your own. we (average club members) are constantly told by you (gods) drive to your trucks capabillities, maybe you should do the same some time, or is this another case of do as i say not as i do
Bernie

[skid]

someone pissed the clerk of the course off real early in the morning and he was grumpy for the rest of the day. 2 hazards were pulled because they were illegal and the host club should of known this. the stewards were protested for allowing failed rollcages to continue. the comment i made about the marshalls relates to them watching other hazards instead of organising thier own, but this can be blamed on the sector marshalls and clerk of course for not looking after them. and then we get to the hazards. i really got to feel for anyone in a standard truck coz those drop offs were stupidly dangerous. we all like drop offs, but not when you have to make a hard left or right turn at the bottom when your back wheels are already off the ground. i spoke to alot of competitors and they were mostly saying they go to trials to compete and enjoy themselves and when they have to put thier lives and trucks on the line, then the enjoyment is gone. yes some of them spend big money, but most of them work hard to earn that money and don't want to see it wasted by someones inability to make hard but safe hazards. you say you don't have to drive that far. I DISAGREE. the scoring was so inept that if you didn't get past the hard part you picked up a healthy 80,90 or 100 for your hard earned efforts. most courses would put the hard stuff at the end of the hazard not the start.
yet again I am only posting my personal opinions.

[BrentC]

I don't think you will ever be dissapointed in South Auckland again

[bernie]

and what has any of this to do with the host club? i suggest nothing, your grip is with NZ4WD
the two hazards you refer to as deemed illegal were protested out because of being man made, and protested i believe by the same person who had man made hazards in one other rally truck trial (you did not know that did you), further, the rule book does make allowances for man made hazards under certain conditions, the host club did in fact ask the question before hand, and was given the ok by the NZ4WD, again your grip is not with the host club and i stand by what i said earlier

[muddyhilux]

i just like to put in my bit that i was a marshall on 21 and i can tell u that there were plenty of drivers that didnt go for gold simply because they kno that their vechiles were just not up to it,thats fare enuf,yes it may be that there are competitiors that have more coin but come on,thats exists in all types of sport/compition and many other things for that matter,and yes on 21 u did have to put in a bit of efort to get a good score but its not like each competitor was run on different scoring so all were in the same boat and it was even and i totally agree with bernie,after all roll overs,even just onto the trucks side,they were then sent to get it checked by a NZ4WD official,not the hosting club.thats all i have to say for now

[mudhaw]

Does any body know the exact number of roll overs for those people that werent there so they have an idear of how dangerous it realy was.
I estamate about 20
I know the drivers dont have to drive an obsical if they find it dangerous but it is a competition and that makes you want to give it ago. Yes its fun just to compete but its even better if you can place. I think thats why so many trucks fell over, and they didnt see what us spectators saw (eg 4 out of the previous 6 trucks roller at the exact same point).
Just my thought
Dion

[Furgus]

Here are my thoughts

Personally I had no issues with the marshals but I had probs with several other issues including the hazards themselves - the excuse by people that they were checked by & thus the NZFWDA's fault is just passing the buck as far as I'm concerned. Also some of the organisation left a bit to be desired.

Firstly the scoring was as Skid said - high points unless you were prepared to risk your truck - we weren't, & finished the day. But we're not expecting to get in the top 10.

Secondly dangerous hazards - Hazard 2 in the morning had a HUGE log that had sharp branches sticking out at all angles - by the time we got there it had already been moved BUT the truck following us rolled down the hill into it!!! Damn lucky no-one was hurt - they DNF'd with a bent cage. Hazard 19 in the afternoon had a mad drop-off that you had to go over if you wanted to get less than (I think) 50pts - 2 trucks that I know of DNF'd with stuffed cages after rolling end over end when coming down this.

Manmade hazards are generally a no-no and there looked to be plenty of scope not to need them.

I spoke to one of the competitors (a bloody good mate) who stuffed his cage on 19 - he only had 2 or 3 more hazards to go - he went to hand in his card & was told if he put his front hubs thru the blues he'd get 100's for his last couple - he did this and was later told (as he'd expected) that that advice was wrong & was given 200's as per the rule book. This explains the talk of people continuing with stuffed cages - not a safety issue but definitely dumb.

The severely hard ground added to the number of seriously damaged vehicles - BUT that was always going to be the case at this time of year in Auckland - why did they not hold a November rally?

As far as the organisation was concerned - Neil didn't even receive the entry forms until a couple of weeks before the event - difficult to then organise accommodation etc.

The pits could have been the worst ever - flat ground was non-existent (for working on your truck) & unless your tow vehicle was a 4x4 you were stuffed - Neil's tow wagon is a Falcon ute & struggled to get out even without the trailer on the back. Any real rain & it would have turned to custard very fast.

Prizes for the top 3 or 4 only sucks I'm afraid. Whilst we don't expect anything major a couple of goodies in a bag is always nice. On average you get $10-30 of garage "stuff" that you don't have to buy yourself. Over the last 3 seasons Neil's picked up all sorts including a steel Jerry-Can with pourer.

Hopefully certificates are in the mail as we didn't even get these at prize-giving.

Some of the same problems occurred at last seasons Auckland rally - namely the number of DNF trucks & the lack of prizes for the general competitors.

All the above is my personal feelings about the day & can in no way reflect the feelings of any other competitors.

[4WDbits]

I was there as spectator and recovery vehicle. I have to say I wouldn't think of attempting some of the stages in some categories of vehicles. Of all the stages and disasters I saw, I also saw the stages driven (funniest thing all day was when a coey got out to take a bow and do paper work, the driver drove off causing the female coey to offer some significant obscenity, funny for some anyway). I don't know if the stages where to hard or dangerous for some categories of vehicle, but certainly they were out of reach of some categories. I think some of the difficulties faced by orgainisers is that there is a vast array of vehicle capabilities and while some can drive the stage, for some its really far to far beyond the vehicles ability. One stage that provided numerous roll overs and breakages, was later driven by what looked like an FJ40 (don't know what class sorry). Maybe thats due to the course changing as the day goes on, certainly hair raising stuff for spectators let alone the driver and coey.

[Dr_PC]

Well I competed in A Class, I won my grade placed 52 out of 75 and scored almost as many points here as I did in Whakatane where I did 20 of the 30 Hazards in 2 wheel drive.

I had no problems with any of the marshalls, I have been there done that and appreciate the job that they do, without them we dont compete

The 2 manmade hazards that were pulled I'm pretty certain that after Wellington last year that it was stated that there would be no more madmade hazards ie created with a digger. This from memory was also mentioned at drivers briefing at Taupo.

I felt that the hazards could have been pegged better the land certainly had the scope for it. They seemed to be either not a lot to them I zeroed 5 or 6 or you needed skid brakes and or bloody big horse power to be able to get better than 80 or 90 points. when I peg hazards I try to make them reasonaly easy to start and become progressivly harder as you move through them. A number of the hazards also were difficult for the spectators to see

Prize giving 12 or 14 spot prizes drawn out of a hat and 2 major prizes, a set of tyres and a terrain tamer both drawn for a grade and the winner of the grade got that. Certificates for the 1st 5 places in each grade,, I pay an entry fee am told that I must place 2 major sponser stickers on my vehicle in prominent view, I place 1st in class and get a certificate again with the major sponser logo on it, they had 2 tents there that I saw, with the tv coverage that they are going to get from this event it certainly left a lot to be desired, particulaly when compared to South Waikato where Certificate, trophy and $100.00 for placing 1st in A class was awarded.


Again these are my opinions and view I am more than happy to talk to people about them but the prize giving was a difinate let down

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2524483 ... 9235NotcqK about 130 photos

Dan Barnett (Dr PC)

[phin]

Hi Guys good to see you are all having a good moan with the benefit of anonymity
As of yet the Manukau 4wd club committee has yet to receive any formal complaints about the event.
But I would like to talk about facts.
1 All hazards were zeroed by at least 2 trucks.
2 The Manukau 4wd club has 100 members of which 2 compete in the national series.
3 The financial commitment/risk to the event of the club is huge. For example it cost $3000 dollars for the land access alone. Not to mention the cost of resource consent, toilets, food, water etc etc etc. To pay for this we need sponsors. If you don’t like the sticker on your truck DONâ€

[borg]

As a volunteer and a member of the Manukau 4WD club im glad you trials guys really appreciated the work we put into the event. I was maning stage 31 and certainly tried to keep a smile while being pelted with mud and keeping an eye on the scoring.

This is the second event I have marshalled and in both I have been hit with abuse from drivers but have said nothing and continued to stick up my hand and help when needed.

There are risks in every sport and if you choose to partake in that sport then you should be well aware of these, I dont doubt that this course was hard both on trucks and drivers but trying to lay blame is not very fair.

Thank you again for your gratitude and im sure that it will play a big part in making the decision to volunteer again.

[DEATH_INC]

Are you saying you were forced to attempt the course?
Of course not. It is up to the competitors to decide wether or not to attempt a hazard at all, and if attempting a hazard, how far or how hard to take it. If you drive like a nut and break your vehicle in the process then you have no one to blame but yourself.

Sorry, but it's a national event, if you wanna be in the running, then you've gotta compete.....even if it is risky.
As a spectator I must admit I was quite surprised at some of the hazards, definately looked a bit hairy, but if you think about it there wasn't much else that could be done with the land avaliable that wouldn't have been a walk in the park for some of the more serious machines.
I don't know what the answer is, but with the wide variety of machines competing it's gonna be tricky to keep everyone happy.

[BrentC]

Does any body know the exact number of roll overs for those people that werent there so they have an idear of how dangerous it realy was.
I estamate about 20

It was about 15 or so less than the previous round.

[BrentC]

Hopefully certificates are in the mail as we didn't even get these at prize-giving.

They are sitting on my desk - I may post them some time - did you see me writing them at the desk behind the prizes - did you come and get yours? or did you want 80 names read out?

[BrentC]

I don't know what the answer is

That's simple - the Drivers Committee and drivers should stop giving advise and then moaning when that advise is followed - or maybe - they should organise their own events.

[BrentC]

As far as the organisation was concerned - Neil didn't even receive the entry forms until a couple of weeks before the event - difficult to then organise accommodation etc.

Prizes for the top 3 or 4 only sucks I'm afraid. Whilst we don't expect anything major a couple of goodies in a bag is always nice. On average you get $10-30 of garage "stuff" that you don't have to buy yourself. Over the last 3 seasons Neil's picked up all sorts including a steel Jerry-Can with pourer.

Hmmm

1, That was when we received the drivers list from the Drivers Committee - accomodation could have been booked for 3 months - coz that was when the date was set - the entry form was on the web site before xmas

2, As Bernie said above - the drivers that we talked to said they didn't want any more crap cheap prizes - so we didn't get any - also Repco and Super Cheap didn't want anything to do with the event - so no prizes from them.

[BrentC]

I pay an entry fee am told that I must place 2 major sponser stickers on my vehicle in prominent view, I place 1st in class and get a certificate again with the major sponser logo on it, they had 2 tents there that I saw,

they had one tent - their money barely paid for the land use and toilets.

the other tent was the TV production company as a favour to NZ4WD and the Drivers Committee - they paid nothing - nudda to the event

your $45 entry fee is nothing compared to the $200 of fuel and phone calls I have personally spent and not claimed - or the hours of my work and leisure time wasted - plus think about what your entry fee would be if you had to pay for BK and TB who took a week off work to manage setting up the course etc and the 25 Manukau members who put the pegs in and cleared the land over 2 weekends etc and then marshelled - all for 2 filled rolls - Bar-B-que dinner and 2 beers.

And you didn't get a crummy can of CRC

[DieselBoy]

I should really keep my nose outa this and just read, as i have never had anything to do with 4x4 trials before.

So tell me to #### off/ignore this post if you see fit.

But an outside perspective, and from experience in several other similar forms of competition motor sport read on:

1. You will always get people complaining about something whether it be the marshals or the courses at a 4x4 trial, or the time keepers or the state of the road in a stage in a rally, or the observers and hardness of sections in a motorcycle trial. For example, i used to spend a full weekend before the hamilton round of the National Motorcycle Trials competetion riding and pegging up to ten sections, each section having to cater for the 5 different entry levels into the competition. Every event with out fail, no matter who you had out with you helping to peg the courses, there was some one who would complain thatthe expert line through the section wasn't hard enough, or the clubman line's were to hard etc etc Its the nature of the game, and you expect it. Take the critisin on board, but leave it at that. Very similar situation to what you and your club are now facing Brent.

2. Moaning about prizes is pathetic. But every time some one does. You give prizes to the top three placings, some one complains that it should have been the top ten. You do the top ten, some one complains that the prizes were crap, and the top three places should have got more than a can of chain lube and hat. You can't win. Again, its a standard winge, you just have to be confident with the desision you made and leave it at that.

3. Gear/vehicle damage during a comp is expected. I wasn't there so i can't comment other than to say that suggestiong the host club was alowing unsafe/damaged vehicles to continue competeing with out following the protocol for instpecting vehicles following an accident, especially with what is at stake in terms of liability these days doesn't seem logical to me. But i wasn't there, so i wouldn't know.

4. Certificates. Get over it. Its a bit of paper. Whats wrong with them being mailed out?? In Motorcycle Trials, we had the results at prize giving, the top finishers got a cert, and then i used to send people the official results from the trial via email the next week. What do all of the participants need a cert for?? I say count your selves lucky you get a cert.

Compare this to a car rally. For a rally sprint in Maramarua Forest, entry fee upwards of $300. Thats for 3 runs through the forest. On top of that you have three sets of tyres, a tank of avgas, new set of brake pads, and also the damage to the car from the almost 4x4 tracks through the forest. Thing is, is that no one is forcing you to go fast and break your car, but if you have the $$ and don't mind the repairs, then you can put it all on the line and try and get a good placing. If not, you drive like a nanna and just have fun.

Same principle with Motorcycle trials. If your fit and healthy and at 1 with the bike, you can put it on the line a good placing. If your afraid of injury, or don't like the size of the rocks, or can't balence on top of a log ready to jump to the next rock, then ride the easier line and enter a differeent class, or take the penalty and get over placings and just have fun doing what you can do with in your abilities.

Now correct me if i am wrong but both above examples will apply to 4x4 trials. Sure its a comp, and if you want a placing, then you gotta put it on the line. Its the nature of the sport. Thats why people do it, just the same as rallying, motocross, Motorcycle trials, track racing etc etc.

So it really gets to me when you hear people winging about it being to hard, it was dangerous etc etc etc. It may have been like that to one person, to another it may have been "#### yeah, this orta seperate the men from the boys".

To take the drop off example that was mentioned earlier. Something along the lines of "if you wanted any less than 40 or 50 points you had to go down it". So yeah and????????? If you can't do it, don't wanna do it, then take the 50 points. Thats the whole point of the sport. See how far you can get. If you can't get past the drop off, then thats as far as you can go, you get the points, end of story. What is there to winge about?? If you think you can do it/have balls of steel/have plenty of $$ to repair if it goes wrong etc etc, then give it ago for the possibility of less points. Its the drivers call. No of this talk about being forced to do it co's its a competition. Thats the idea, its a competition. To seperate the people that go, no way am i going down there its just dangerous from the ones that go, hell, what have i got to loose i'll give it a go, from the ones that go " hah, is that all you've got, i could drive that with my eyes closed.


I haven't competed in 4x4 trials, and yes, i am but nieve(sp?), but the main gripe to me seems to be that the challenge was laid out in the form of the sections/courses/stages what ever, and some couldn't step up to the mark and are complaining.

What they are complaing about is most easily defined as being the level of competition. The level of competition for the top placings was to high for them. Thats were comments about having to put your self in danger to get
a good placing really don't sit well. If thats the case, then you need to be in a different class, or spend more $$ to get your truck up to the standard that you can compete for these placing safely. Simple as that.

Say what you like, this is a public forum, and i have the right to voice my opinion whether relevant or not

Cheers,
Pete.

[TJ]

I was maning stage 31 and certainly tried to keep a smile while being pelted with mud and keeping an eye on the scoring.

Hey, I was at the bottom of 31!!! I had mud coming out of my wallet when I got home.... Still had a good day of fun watching competitors do what they are supposed to do, use their brains.

[Furgus]

mudhaw wrote:
Does any body know the exact number of roll overs for those people that werent there so they have an idear of how dangerous it realy was.
I estamate about 20

It was about 15 or so less than the previous round.

The problem was not the number of rolls but the damage inflicted when one did roll. There were very few DNF's at Whakatane but more rolls. [/quote]

[BrentC]

Its the nature of the game, and you expect it. Take the critisin on board, but leave it at that. Very similar situation to what you and your club are now facing Brent.

yep - been there heaps of times before - I was the Pacific Rim and NZ President of a sport for a few years and have organised a few Regional, National and International Champs - no matter what the sport - you get similar gripes - however I have always had a competitive interest in that sport as well.

It has been interesting being involved - this was a first organising a round of the National Trials for most us - the last few Trials we have done were contracted out to the Extreme Park.