so... automatic or manual truck?

dblancer · Post by **dblancer** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:53 am

Just looking at trucks lately... seeing whats what and a big question come up.

Do I buy an automatic or a manual.

Alot of people swear by the autos for offroading, making it easier to traverse bumpy/rocky terrain without having to clutch.
Also moving between different gear ranges is easier

I worry a little about autos due to the high failure cost ( owned a auto car and it failed.. ugh! )

The manuals obvious benefit appears to be better on-road driving and cheaper maintence costs ( well clutch perhaps ) and better fuel economy.
Manuals appear more rare in most modern trucks, is this a good or a bad thing?
I have the potential to buy a manual, otherwise I will have settle for an auto.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?
Sorry if this has been asked too many times before.

Steve_t647 · Post by **Steve_t647** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:24 am

OK Here is my take on Auto's and manuals offroad and I have driven both.

Auto's need more speed (revs) for bumping over rocks than manuals (unless you have crawl ratio's and really low gears) also a coiled 4x4 is softer on the driver and passengers, they are far harder to stall and need far less gear changes. The biggest benefits are two hands on the wheel and you can change gear without risking getting water and mud between the clutch plate and flywheel. Climbing is far easier as long as you hold the 4wd in gear but failed hill climbs are more difficult as you have to drive over the brakes, getting to the track is so easy, Just D and go, also your wife / gf / co pilot should be able to drive it too.

Manuals (and I drive one) can loose their clutch in a river, stall and can be difficult to get into reverse gear at the top of a failed hill assent, you also have to use both feet and hands at the same time to change gear so a good seat bracing you is of benefit (I have a hilux and a bench seat so slide occasionaly). In a manual you also have to pick a gear and speed for a river crossing and finish it in that gear no matter what as changing gear can cause all the power to be lost as sliping between clutch and flywheel.

All that said I still prefer to use my manual box even if I have a sore arm from all the gear changes during the touring sections to where we are 4wding Also because I am leaf sprung and cant bounce like the coiled 4x4's the more controlled and slower climbing os softer on the 4x4 and more importantly NONE of the girls I dated would drive it :lol:

well not in public anyway in case they ground gears or did something similaralily embarrasing :roll:

Hmm I wonder what some will say about that last bit :twisted:

Both have their benefits and it is more personal choice and how much you can forgive in the 4x4 you own, also it depends on type of 4wd activities. All you can do is look at others choices and see why also jump into a auto 4wd off road and see what they do some time, you will be supprised how much easier they are, both still get stuck.

albundy · Post by **albundy** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:54 am

If you need to change gears in a manual in water, you can give it some revs while the clutch is depressed using centrifugal force to keep the water out, believe it or not it actually works. I would much prefer a manual for a failed hill climb then an auto. Stall it, put in reverse and start it in gear with both feet firmly tucked up under the seat. Autos can give problems when coming over rises, IE steep ascent into a steep descent with no plateau at the top. I love my manual.
Al

Post by **Mark** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:26 pm

I drive an auto Safari and am slowly getting used to it.

In muddy/sandy situations auto is good because if you start slowing you can just plant your hoof and it'll change down and keep momentum up. And momentum is one of the main things you need to successfully navigate those sorts of obstacles.

Having said that, I will never get used to, or be happy with, ascents/descents in an auto. I like the idea of crawling down something under engine braking. I also like the idea of reversing out of a failed hill climb slowly under engine braking. It is possible to simulate this by driving over your brakes (ie, one foot on the brakes and one on the go pedal to keep the wheels turning and avoid locking them up) but it puts a lot of strain/wear on the brakes. And it's something that you need to practice a few times before you get into a tricky situation. I had a couple of scares early on when I had to reverse off a slippery hill and just tried to use the brakes to control my descent... very scary once the wheels lock and you start sliding... and releasing the brakes and flying down at a great rate of knots goes against every natural reaction you have!

I find that with standard gear ratios I can do around 30km/h in reverse (low range - 50+ high!), which means that there is no way in hell the engine is every going to provide you with any braking. First gear is also relatively high and it pisses me off when we are winding down a steep hill in a convoy and all the manuals have no brake lights on and here I am riding the brakes all the way down the hill (yes, locked down in low-low) so that I don't take out the person in front of me.

So yeah, basically it is personal preference, and you can only gain that from trying both. I have had countless debates with Mike about it (he's in the auto camp, I'm in the manual camp) and even though he is adamant that he is right I am still not convinced. I only went with auto because the truck was very cheap as autos are more readily available... those Japanese are just too lazy!

You are not going to loose anything significant by trying either.

Jafa · Post by **Jafa** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:11 pm

Add one of these to your truck and get the best of both worlds, and a torque converter lock up switch too
http://awshifting.com/

TJ · Post by TJ » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:25 pm

I have an auto with a lock up converter and it works great. I can down shift to D1 and it stays in the first gear unless I am reviving so high that the engine is about to explode (in which case it up-shifts to protect everything). However, so far I have never had it up-shift to protect things, even when I was redlining.

Autos differ a lot. Some are more auto than others. Mine can be controlled manually with shifting the gears between D,2,1 and it stays that way. I would have loved to have a manual, but sometimes when you are buying a used truck, you have to weigh your priorities. In my case, I wanted something black and it was only available with an auto. Didn't want to wait.

As for repair and maintenance, I thinks its a bit like petrol engine and diesel engine maintenance. Diesel needs less regular maintenance, but is expensive to fix when it breaksdown. Autos need regular oil changes, but as long as you don't get them too hot or full of water, they'll last a reasonable service life.

Petemcc · Post by **Petemcc** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:00 pm

i dont think i would get at auto unless you had an engine with abit of grunt as they seem to suck abit of power and you cant dump the clutch.

Pete

tpft · Post by **tpft** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:31 pm

its alot a easier to drink beers and roll smokes in a auto...........

TJ · Post by TJ » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:01 pm

Petemcc wrote:i dont think i would get at auto unless you had an engine with abit of grunt as they seem to suck abit of power and you cant dump the clutch.

Pete

Agree completely. I have the luxury of a grunty 4.0 L inline 6 cyl engine that has more than plenty low end torque. On top Wranglers only weigh around 1800 kgs (not counting me, of course).

As for dumping the clutch, well mine takes off when you floor the skiny pedal like there is no tomorrow. Again, the engine has to be grunty enough to do that.

TJ · Post by TJ » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:04 pm

tpft wrote:its alot a easier to drink beers and roll smokes in a auto...........

Or to drive with your left foot when your right foot is tired or incapacitated...

rangimotors · Post by **rangimotors** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:54 pm

in many ways i want a manual and do go on about it a fair bit, but i do also think im many places the auto keeps me out of trouble, there sure are good sides and down sides to both i guess you buy what you like and what you can afford and learn your truck and how to drive it

Dr_PC · Post by **Dr_PC** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:23 pm

Have driven both for a number of years my Jimny is manual when I repower it will be auto real simple reason two pedals two feet. learn to left foot brake if you cant already no stalling going up or down hill with autos no matter how big the cattle ruts. I more often than not use my left foot on the brake even on road, and it is a must do in my wifes laser otherwise i end up getting both pedals due to their placement

skid · Post by **skid** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:02 pm

your probably never gona do it, but if you plan on going up near vertical climbs, then an auto can cause grief.
I have heard it before but never seen it until the weekend at the NZ v SA trial.

This guy drives up a really steep hillclimb, gets to the point where he can't go any further and tries to get reverse, meanwhile the front wheels are leaving the ground and before you know it he going over backwards, punching the radiator into the motor and shortening his truck at both ends.

I have heard of other people having problems getting it into reverse or even having the auto not engage at all because of the steep incline the truck is sitting on.

just something else to think about.

rowinz · Post by **rowinz** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:06 pm

I have always driven manuals, but now own an auto. As Mark said very disconcerting with descents particularly. Thats why I am gonna do a DIY torque converter lockup switch. Also running 33s on the Prado, the engine braking is even less for given road speed. Just a matter of getting used to it I s'pose.
I still prefer manuals.

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:16 pm

i love my auto
when i first used it off road i was surprised how good the engine braking was i was very comfortable with it but the extra low ratio of my low range probably helped a bit

Dr_PC · Post by **Dr_PC** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:41 pm

skid wrote:your probably never gona do it, but if you plan on going up near vertical climbs, then an auto can cause grief.
I have heard it before but never seen it until the weekend at the NZ v SA trial.

This guy drives up a really steep hillclimb, gets to the point where he can't go any further and tries to get reverse, meanwhile the front wheels are leaving the ground and before you know it he going over backwards, punching the radiator into the motor and shortening his truck at both ends.

I have heard of other people having problems getting it into reverse or even having the auto not engage at all because of the steep incline the truck is sitting on.

just something else to think about.

I'd be looking at the setup Somthing doesn't sound quite right there. Andrew Gharam with the Cowleys hire Sponsored D Class has been running auto with the Lexus for the last 2 seasons and he hasnt had a problem hooking reverse with it and 2 years ago when I co-drove for him some of those were pretty bl**y straight up abd down

De-Ranged · Post by **De-Ranged** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:41 pm

Heard about that roll... I'd gone home by then, should have said you were coming skid could have cought up for a woody or two :wink:

the zuk at full revs and sreaming co-pilot was mean :lol:

Anyway that issue with autos at steep angles is a weird one, I spend alot of time on crawler sites and the americans haven't worked out why some do it and others don't even in the same model
Apparintly an issue with the toyota auto(some don't have any issues

), not with the Jeep the weird thing is they are the same there is very little differance between them just different cases

I'm guessing its an oil issue, hopefully I'll be able to sort it for my crawler :wink:

as I'm going auto

Cheers Reece

swampa · Post by **swampa** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:43 pm

auto with manual shift, what could be better

skid · Post by **skid** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:44 pm

Dr_PC wrote:
skid wrote:your probably never gona do it, but if you plan on going up near vertical climbs, then an auto can cause grief.
I have heard it before but never seen it until the weekend at the NZ v SA trial.

This guy drives up a really steep hillclimb, gets to the point where he can't go any further and tries to get reverse, meanwhile the front wheels are leaving the ground and before you know it he going over backwards, punching the radiator into the motor and shortening his truck at both ends.

I have heard of other people having problems getting it into reverse or even having the auto not engage at all because of the steep incline the truck is sitting on.

just something else to think about.

I'd be looking at the setup Somthing doesn't sound quite right there. Andrew Gharam with the Cowleys hire Sponsored D Class has been running auto with the Lexus for the last 2 seasons and he hasnt had a problem hooking reverse with it and 2 years ago when I co-drove for him some of those were pretty bl**y straight up abd down

next time you're heading south Dan, you should call in and have a look at Don's cruiser. It would not engage reverse, just stayed in drive. OUCH :!:

spanky · Post by **spanky** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:50 pm

like petemcc was saying with his ,my scudo is manual and it is good for holding on the limiter and dumping the clutch but my new scudo is going to be auto but with 147kw compared to 69kw it should be sweet, with anything it is the gearing, no idea what mine will be like 1st gear 3.06 2nd1.63 3rd 1.00 4th 0.70 transfer is 2.07 to 1 and diffs are 4.88 i have no idea what that translates to on the road but should be good, best idea is to try both if you can, cant do this in a auto though http://www.offroadexpress.co.nz/images/ ... .thumb.jpg
good luck with your purchase
vaughan

dvszuk · Post by **dvszuk** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:48 pm

I have heard about what skid is talking about i have evan seen video footage of a auto not engaging reverse because of the steepness of the hill and having all that tension still running through the gear box.
I personally prefer manual but because of my wifes driving ( riding clutch etc ) my next tow wagon will probably be an auto.

TJ · Post by TJ » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:13 pm

De-Ranged wrote:Anyway that issue with autos at steep angles is a weird one, I spend alot of time on crawler sites and the americans haven't worked out why some do it and others don't even in the same model
Apparintly an issue with the toyota auto(some don't have any issues ), not with the Jeep the weird thing is they are the same there is very little differance between them just different cases

I'm guessing its an oil issue, hopefully I'll be able to sort it for my crawler as I'm going auto

Cheers Reece

The issue, as I understand it is, that the oil gathers towards the bottom half and the oil pick-up starts to run dry. This means no gears in an auto. Same thing can happen with the fuel supply on sharp corners.

The solution I have found is to run a deeper transmission pan (available from Mopar for Jeep applications). It allows you to run more oil in the transmission with two benefits (1) more oil means better cooling (2) kit comes with a deeper pick-up which vertually eliminates dry pick-up. Jeep kit is also available from the dealer. I am sure similar kits are available for other makes.

I constantly use both my feet - left for braking and right for accelerator. Its just become a habit now.

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:23 pm

the pan on the trans on my wagen is quite a bit deeper than a stndard mercedes trans i guess that is why

TJ · Post by TJ » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:28 pm

I also forgot, the deeper pan comes with a drain plug. Makes life so much easier to change the oil in an auto. I don't understand why automakers would put drain plugs in a manual gearbox where oil doesn't need to be changed often, and not put a drain plug in an auto where the oil is required to be changed more frequently. Something is wrong here.

BIG_BOY · Post by **BIG_BOY** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:53 am

most dont put drain plugs other wise you get what happend in my safari witch has a drain plug from i bought 4-5 weeks ago & the 1st thing i did was a trans flush evan thop it had just had one pulled the sump off only to find the filter had 1998 75,697k written on it its now 2007 & it has 195,000 ish K in it rung the old owner who told me it was regualy flushed only to find a flush to him was undo the drain plug let that drain fill up with about 3L of new fluid witch done nothing really so 26L of flushing later 2 new filters while flushing & 8.6L more to fill up my auto was happy again

what douse this all mean the reason most dont have drain plugs is becouse people dont know anuf about them & would just all do what he did heanse there would be alot more brakages its one of thoes things were a little noladge (sp?) is more of a bad thing than a good hay they thort it was just like a manual to service

TJ · Post by TJ » Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:58 am

I take your point BIG_BOY. I do make sure that my transmission oil and filter are both changed at the same time every 20,000 kms. Although having a drain plug makes it easier to empty the pan first and then take it off (first time when I did the change, it was interesting to say the least). I guess unless the filter is moved outside (like the engine has), most people wouldn't think about it.

Post by **Mark** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:11 am

swampa wrote:auto with manual shift, what could be better

Only if your gear/diff ratios are low enough. An auto would be brilliant if you modified it with a manual torque converter lockup and lower gear/diff ratios. If you could make it so that first gear is the equivalent to a manual 1st-2nd ratio and so that reverse gear didn't allow you to do 50km/h then an auto would be the ultimate.

I'm sure that the competition trucks are set up like this and that's why they are the transmission of choice for those trucks.

All autos can be locked down and I always have mine in either 1 or 2 (never D because most autos just aren't smart enough to deal with serious offroad conditions).

And as Mike nagged at me for so long: "Learn to drive with two feet on the peddles in an auto and drive over the brakes to stop the wheels from locking on an descent to simulate engine braking". It works.

tpft · Post by **tpft** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:24 am

was a truck for sale a while ago had a 3 speed manual gearbox behind a th350 auto, this seemed like a good idea, heaps of ratio,s incl very low plus maybe a bit of wizzardy could be done with a servo to flick reverse in a hurry if u got too point of no return, using the old drag racer trick could run manual clutch in place of converter too for staring and stopping.

guess it would make for longer front driveshaft .........

niblik · Post by **niblik** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:24 pm

its the old chicken or the egg question huh?

as with nissan or toyota?

holden or ford?

each to their own..

mercutio · Post by **mercutio** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:20 pm

doing a fluid change on mine is quite easy there is a banjo bolt on the side of the pan that is for the dipstick tube so undo that to drain the fluid then remove the pan there is also a drain plug on the torque converter

as for having a low range first gear i have one of those to for normal on road driving it takes off in second gear only uses first if i make it or there i have a load on

1st gear 4,007
2nd gear 2,392
3rd gear 1,436
4th gear 1
reverse 5,495
torque converter i=1.84

so... automatic or manual truck?

so... automatic or manual truck?

Re: so... automatic or manual truck?