Managing tracks, not tyre size. by Peter Vahry

[Bulletproof]

I had a PM to say Peter had quoted me in the NZ4WD mag so I have bought a copy.

This is an area I believe what Peter says is right. There are clubs like Nelson that have a 33 inch tyre rule but this is not the answer. Even a 44 inch tyre only gains a max of 5 inches over a 33 so there is not much extra damage to the track and most trucks would even have the power to spin that size.

Most damage to the tracks is done through water going down the wheel ruts so this is what needs controlling. Many tracks in high rainfall areas have ruts that are 3-4 feet deep and I have seen some 6 feet deep.

Tracks that are prone to these problems probably need to be managed by a charge to cover the cost of maintenance otherwise they will end up being unable to be driven by anybody, even ones on 44s.

The only way to control this would be by having gates like they are now doing at Waitawheta and then a small charge for the key to cover costs.

When I started 4 wheel driving clubs could drive most of the tracks with little 600x16s on Land Rovers with no diff locks so things have changed quite dramatically and these same tracks are not used anymore by ordinary club people.

So I agree with Peter that the tracks need managing before we lose them all
to the elements.

Cheers Richard

[Crash bandicoot]

have to agree, 10 years ago I had a stock standard 2.8 TD isuzu rodeo, riding on 31.5 firestone AT's. No diff locks no winch and even with the tray over hang it still went 90% of the places i asked of it.

now i have a more capable 4wd with more ground clearance shorter wheel base and minimal over hang and now need difflock's 265 MT's and occasionally a winch to go the same places. some parts i don't even bother with anymore unless i haven't used the winch for a few weeks/month and thinks it needs a run.

[UBZ]

there also needs to be mentality change by the track users

5minutes of spade work or hooking up a tow or winch ; instead on just hitting every thing with wheel spin , speed and horsepower and digging great big holes everywhere.

bragging rights seem to be more important than minimizing track damage for other users.

[zukmeista]

there also needs to be mentality change by the track users

5minutes of spade work or hooking up a tow or winch ; instead on just hitting every thing with wheel spin , speed and horsepower and digging great big holes everywhere.

bragging rights seem to be more important than minimizing track damage for other users.

X2 If you've had a couple of goes just get a tow instead of wrecking the track.

[tow99]

x3 any excuse to get the winch out!!!

[J_Dub]

there also needs to be mentality change by the track users

5minutes of spade work or hooking up a tow or winch ; instead on just hitting every thing with wheel spin , speed and horsepower and digging great big holes everywhere.

bragging rights seem to be more important than minimizing track damage for other users.

True

But then we dont build trucks to the extent that we do, just so we winch and get towed eveywhere, half the fun is testing your truck and knowing its limits, what it can or cant do..

Have fun, see who gets bragging rights then afterwards everyone get on the end of a spade and have a 10 min clean up, and do a bit of maintenance

[tow99]

yes true but what i think what they are getting at is the damage to the main arterial tracks.there are always harder side tracks.its also the people that have no chance of making it then just sitting there spinning that are doing the damage

[J_Dub]

yeap.

that comes down to discretion and knowing right from wrong, when its appropriate or not to give it some pedal.

[Bulletproof]

I think a lot are missing the point here.

It is not using the spade or spinning tyres that is doing most of the damage to a lot of tracks.

It is the Water running down the ruts that need managing.

Here is Subaru hill in the mid 90s when ordinary club trucks could drive it.



Here is a recent photo of the same section



A report I had a couple of months ago said it too bad now to ride a horse down and it is the water running down that has done the damage.

We used to use Subaru hill for the "Coast to Coast" and now it is almost lost and many tracks are similar.

That is why I am with Peter on this one about managing the water run off on the tracks

Cheers Richard

[lincooln]

I agree too. Water does heaps of damage. Especially when its tracking down a hill in ruts, whether they be bicycle, motor bike or 4wd.

But in saying that how would you go about managing the water run off? put in curbs and drains along side each track? It just seems like it would be quite hard work.

Please do not take this the wrong way, I think something needs to be done too. But I fail to see at this point in time how it would be feasible. Would be better to have a lock and key and a small charge for the use of the key. We use to have something similar up here too. However this impedes on people's freedom to go places etc and people will kick up a fuss etc.

Always happy to be proven wrong though

[basics]

Would be better to have a lock and key and a small charge for the use of the key. We use to have something similar up here too. However this impedes on people's freedom to go places etc and people will kick up a fuss etc.

having a key will not stop damage from water though

[lincooln]

no but the funds raised can go into track maintenance. Which will help to keep the tracks open to all.

[Suza]

From my observations yes water is an issue but so is the style of driving that people employee and tire choice. I regularly drive with people who run simex's and have found that on softer tracks if I am in front on my MT's I have no problems but if I am after them i am stuffed as it is like a rotary hoe has been through and the ruts get bigger and everything gets dug out

[drive it ...]

A lot of times it only takes 10 min or so to cut a water path off the side rather than letting the water run down the wheel tracks. Did some trips with Otago LRC over last Xmas and noticed the leader quite often called up the last couple of trucks to do a bit of maintenance at a creek crossing. Dosn't hold up the group if only the last couple stop and shift a few rocks or rebuild a water bar.

[klompy]

I think theres a lot more people out there doing it as well,10 years ago some local tracks would get a trip every couple of months but now they are used almost weekly.I also dont think tyre size is all the problem some guys are hard on the gas pedal.

[Jafa]

I tend to agree with both Richard and Peter on this one, but then I'm biased, i have 40's lol
One thing I do know is that my jalopy does no damage to the track compared to a truck on 31's with open diffs and spinning the free whee lat both ends, my thing is all about traction rather than wheel spin and speed, now that doesn't mean wheel spin never happens, but a lot less dirt gets moved when you have soft tires at 3psi and two diff locks. The issue is the ruts get washed out after the trucks have been through, maybe trip leaders need to educate the tail enders about cutting run off grooves or something.... my 2c

that said, i don't damage anything when its stuck in the shed lol

[rokhound]

I tend to agree with both Richard and Peter on this one, but then I'm biased, i have 40's lol
One thing I do know is that my jalopy does no damage to the track compared to a truck on 31's with open diffs and spinning the free whee lat both ends, my thing is all about traction rather than wheel spin and speed, now that doesn't mean wheel spin never happens, but a lot less dirt gets moved when you have soft tires at 3psi and two diff locks. The issue is the ruts get washed out after the trucks have been through, maybe trip leaders need to educate the tail enders about cutting run off grooves or something.... my 2c

that said, i don't damage anything when its stuck in the shed lol

I 100% agree with you here Jafa, right down to the mutts' tyre size, psi and the fact that it is buried under a huge pile of shit as well

Some one hit the nail on the head earler when they said about the sheer amouint of use tracks are getting now, and the availabilty of bolt on goodies that guys can get their hands on with no real time experienece as to why they actually need them. When I first put 33" tyres on a 60 series in the mid 90's I had people calling it a monster truck , yet a lux on 31's used to piss bowl it (ground clearnace etc). But now people are biffing 35's and above at trucks and driving the same tracks we all used to be able to do on smaller tyre with out understanding that they don't need to give it death, this creates a more localised trench for the water runoff to do it's thing.
Not sure what the answer is now, as I don't see the responsible driver trhing working somehow

If I could find the enthusiasim, I would love to sort a stadia course that is ugly as all hell and has no tyre size restriction, or demeirts for backing up etc. It would just run on the distance you went in the time allowed.
Other events held are generally useless to me as they involve 36" tyre size restriction, (i have 3 sets of wheels and tyres and the smallest is 37"), and I dislike playing in mud etc as it is a shit to clean and quietly destroys your rig. The ultimate "tread lightly" is the track that destroys your truck if you get it wrong. Rocks are great, mother nature always wins when you pick the wrong line

[DieselBoy]

This year at xmas up the far north around Herekino ways, UBZ and I were out with our spades fixing a piece of track that had got really bad due to run off and a spring.

UBZ's locked Surf on 33's breezed through, my Defender with open diffs ground to a stop. He towed me through and we got the spades out and decided to fix the track as it was only going to get worse with the heavy traffic around that time of year.

While we were busy digging and fixing the water table some F##kn Tool came past with another of his mates in a stock surf and a old bounty ute and proceeded to engage 2WD and roost us wrecking the repairs.

His excuse when confronted by a slightly pissed off UBZ, was that it was wankers like us with big tyres that were wrecking the tracks in the area.

Hmmm.

I have other stories of people bragging about how far up Maratoto they got in 2WD before they had to engage 4WD. The track damage was significant. You know who you are

My point is that driver attitudes need to change in two respects:

- Respect for our tracks. Use of these tracks is no longer a god given right of all New Zealanders, so we must look after them for both ourselves and other 4wheelers that may want to use them. This includes fixing water tables if you have damaged them or see they need attention and draining bogs if they have developed.

- Bragging rights. You are not cool if you wreck the track. You penis is not bigger than your mates if you drive to the end of the track in 2WD. You ARE cool if you make everything look easy, just doodling over everything making it look effortless and laughing at your mates when they get stuck and you have to tow them. If your truck has 50" tyres and portals and you drive everything effortlessly, you are going to do way less damage then a dude on 31's spinning his tyres and throwing his truck at everything fighting for every inch of forward ground gained.

If you want to test how awesome (or not)your truck is, enter competitions. Don't fcuk the tracks.

[Nis-man]

I agree with you, I used to have a surf with 31's and used to have to wheel spin to get anywhere yet those on 33's and 35's could almost crawl over some of the track that caused me problems, if all the track users did a bit of maintenance when they were in there then the tracks would remain reasonable, every trip I have been on we have always done some sort of maintenance. I also agree that water does cause bogs etc, but I think mainteenance to divert water as best as possible will help eliminate this as well. It all comes down to being a responsible 4wder.
Thats my opinion for what it is worth.

This year at xmas up the far north around Herekino ways, UBZ and I were out with our spades fixing a piece of track that had got really bad due to run off and a spring.

UBZ's locked Surf on 33's breezed through, my Defender with open diffs ground to a stop. He towed me through and we got the spades out and decided to fix the track as it was only going to get worse with the heavy traffic around that time of year.

While we were busy digging and fixing the water table some F##kn Tool came past with another of his mates in a stock surf and a old bounty ute and proceeded to engage 2WD and roost us wrecking the repairs.

His excuse when confronted by a slightly pissed off UBZ, was that it was wankers like us with big tyres that were wrecking the tracks in the area.

Hmmm.

I have other stories of people bragging about how far up Maratoto they got in 2WD before they had to engage 4WD. The track damage was significant. You know who you are

My point is that driver attitudes need to change in two respects:

- Respect for our tracks. Use of these tracks is no longer a god given right of all New Zealanders, so we must look after them for both ourselves and other 4wheelers that may want to use them. This includes fixing water tables if you have damaged them or see they need attention and draining bogs if they have developed.

- Bragging rights. You are not cool if you wreck the track. You penis is not bigger than your mates if you drive to the end of the track in 2WD. You ARE cool if you make everything look easy, just doodling over everything making it look effortless and laughing at your mates when they get stuck and you have to tow them. If your truck has 50" tyres and portals and you drive everything effortlessly, you are going to do way less damage then a dude on 31's spinning his tyres and throwing his truck at everything fighting for every inch of forward ground gained.

If you want to test how awesome (or not)your truck is, enter competitions. Don't fcuk the tracks.

[xj]

This year at xmas up the far north around Herekino ways,

Theres ya problem right there, Koke and Mitimiti we're much more relaxed. Herekino... meh

[Dr_PC]

Hey Pete,
Yep I constantly see it I ALWAYS run 4wd in the buggy and listen to others say "oh we did that in 2wd". I usually say Why? its no hardship running 4wd its kinder to everything (including your wagon), but yeah I'm a pussy

[MUZZADUCK]

I fail to see how a vehicle sitting stranded on its diffs and running say 31,s or 33,s can do track damage when the reason its sitting on the diffs with the wheels not making contact is because of the tools that have already done the damage and moved on..... What about Farmers vehicles, DOC vehicles, hunters, tramper etc etc. Stuffing public tracks that we all own and have paid taxes for and therefore denying access to the majority is a bit on the nose I reckon.

[crazyclark31]

I fail to see how a vehicle sitting stranded on its diffs and running say 31,s or 33,s can do track damage when the reason its sitting on the diffs with the wheels not making contact is because of the tools that have already done the damage and moved on..... What about Farmers vehicles, DOC vehicles, hunters, tramper etc etc. Stuffing public tracks that we all own and have paid taxes for and therefore denying access to the majority is a bit on the nose I reckon.

Because aside from most farmer they are ususally the culprits. Have seen it man a time.
The said vehcile stranded on its diffs usuaally got there by giving it heaps and spinning the wheels until it is diffed out.
Your obviously new to this or you would know thaat a big truck say a safari on 35s has same clearance as a surf on 33s or a suzuki on 31s.

Again its the idiots that skid the crap outa things that start the damage
Fyi i have been on tracks were local doc man has growled at us for skidding the track then procceds to skid and claw his way up a bank treaaing itup in his locked and raised work truck and we walk up same bank after him without skidding a wheel.
IT COMES DOWN TO DRIVER SKILL AND ACTUALLY GIVING A TOSS.

[Jafa]

What a lot of people fail to realise is that total club membership in NZ is in the majority of 4x4,s that get used off road. Of the club members(and others), the ones running large agressive tyred heavily modified trucks are still very much in the minority. I can't for the life of me see why there is a need to run excessive lifts and huge tyres any way. Trials trucks even have a tyre limit-and for good reason. Why should the few dictate to the minority?
If you can,t get there on 33,s -get the friggen spade and shovel out. Ban those bigger tyres and give everone a fair go-or lose access. Simple really.

Another thing that people fail to realise it that alot of damage is done by little tyres that rely on momentum and excessive wheel spin to get through the sticky spots that the big tyres simply walk over and do no damage.
Big tyres don't do damage, dickheads with no respect or driving skill do.

Muzzaduck, have you actually been out 4wding?
you ask how a truck on 31s can do damage when its sitting on its diffs?, it wont, its the damage it did getting to that point, most of the time its arrived there via multiple attempts with masses of wheel-spin and momentum...
As Tom said in a reply to your other post, its dickheads with no respect that do the damage, not big tires.
Why most competitions have a tire size limit, is a budget thing, or a level playing field thing otherwise the biggest tires would get purchased... why?, because they provide the most TRACTION and clearance
Your spade and shovel do more damage to tracks than my 40's do....

[lilpigzuk]

blah blah blah when the reason its sitting on the diffs with the wheels not making contact is because of the tools that have already done the damage and moved on..... blah blah blah

You know when water runs across soil it usally washes it away
Back when I was a boy Everyone had 7.50 x 16 SATs and we would ALWAYS have to do spade work on tracks we had driven months earlier because rain actually did the most damage to tracks.

And I only have 31s but you dont see me

[L-andy]

There are heaps of old unused logging tracks on the west coast which have not been driven for many, many years that have waist deep ruts in them! The only traffic since logging stopped has probably been hunters boots.

There are other well used tracks that become impassible after one good storm. Tracks get rutted out regardless of traffic.

The fact that a track exists at all usually means the vegetation has been removed. This means the soil is exposed and prone to erosion. Mother nature can do more damage in a couple of hours than big tyres will in a lifetime.

My 2-cents
L-andy

[hosehustler]

Most of us townie flatlander scumbag bogan's such as my self have similar opinions of some rural folk, who are so much better than me as they do far more for the NZ economy than I do, far more productive than I as i've nothing to offer.........and then I go and invade your land and wreck your pleasure.

*Sorry*

[hosehustler]

And just like rural folk you will find a lot of townie's accommodating, I happily offer my services to many.
What you will find me doing is enjoying my downtime with recreation pleasure, which does include a vehicle which you obviously detest.
I'm sorry you've formed a very narrow opinion of types such as me, the forum is mostly used for folk to share knowledge, idea's, projects and enjoy each others company, of which you seem to have very little so far.
You're most welcome to stay, participate constructively as others have suggested, however if you're not keen on that just leave

[tow99]

sounds like its going to become a large grey area between the classes of vehicle.i.e would they be doing it by the individual vehicles weight? the gvm stated by the manfacturer?with or without gear etc etc.would be better having a 33 or 35 inch max for all vehicles.it would limit the arguements a little i guess.by doing this and reducing the market for offroad tyres manfuctures might start limiting the stocks they have keep making it harder for offroad compeditors etc

[Sadam_Husain]

somebody still isnt "getting" the fact that a light truck eg suzuki on 31's has the same clearance as a safari/cruiser on 35's

if you read his post history he's only signed up here to have a wind up and flame some old threads up mate

Its a bit dissapointing that everyone else can behave constructively and realise that other people have valid opinions and your own opinion isnt nessecarily right... the jokers probably got a few good ideas but as far as his internet posting goes he's just another plonker