Diff Dictionary

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Azza
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Diff Dictionary

Post by Azza »

There has been a lot of discussion about different types of 4x4 diffs lately... so as a beginner just what is all that nasty terminology that crops up??

:?: So whats the difference between lockers and locking hubs... manual hubs, auto hubs?? why are they so different in the way your diff functions... and just how does it function and how does it all work???...

:?: Whats the difference between a limited slip diff and a open diff or a diff with manual hubs??

front diffs, rear diffs, lockers, lsd's... just what do thay all do?... why would if want any off them, what are their features, benefits, disadvantages... as a beginner, the mind starts turning to mush at the mere utterence of this sort of thing :shock:

I'm sure there is someone in this community that can shed some light on the whole thing and make it easy for us newbies to get a foothold on 4x4 chatter... so when we're at the next ORE sponsored BBQ we won't all have to just ignorantly nod politely like we know what all you guys are talking about :wink:
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niblik
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Re: Diff Dictionary

Post by niblik »

Azza wrote: :?: So whats the difference between lockers and locking hubs...


lockin hubs are on the end of diffs in front wheel hub.

a locker will go in your diff head which is the big 'pumpkin' in your axles. it'll provide 100% drive to both wheels when power is put in from accelleration. auto lockers automatically 'unlock' when goin around a corner on sealed road. an lsd is a Limited Slip Diff and will do a similar jobas a locker, it'll drive both wheels equally till the force of the obstacle ya driving through overcomes the clutches set point, at which point it will just drive one wheel. open diff just means there is 100 % drive to any one wheel per diff in the sticky stuff..

Azza wrote: manual hubs, auto hubs??


manual hubs are found on front diff only (unless mods are done to rear diff by owners, but very rare) and are manually engaged at rest prior to your offroad excursion. auto hubs will automatically engage.. imho manuals are better as you know for sure if they are 'in' or not..

hope that sheds a little light on the subject, albeit brief azza...
Last edited by niblik on Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TJ
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Post by TJ »

Have a read of these two links, it should keep you busy for a while:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

http://www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

There is much more out there, seek and you shall find.
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Post by niblik »

like tj said, to much to post........

do a few searches and you'll find a heap of 'happy reading hours' :wink:
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Post by Bubba »

I just read all the posts, asked lots of questions here and to some of the guys and you will amazed how quick you pick up on it. Also as stuff breaks and it needs replacement you work out what it does
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Post by Steve_t647 »

OK Lets start at the beginning and work through the drive train at the front you have an engine it provides the power that somehow needs to get to the wheels, it first goes though a gearbox to get reduced or geared up to a point you can send it to the wheels. OK enough on that bit Next it goes to the 4wd system…

So now how does it all work? There are almost as many different types of four-wheel-drive systems as there are four-wheel-drive vehicles. It seems that every manufacturer has several different schemes for providing power to all of the wheels. So there is a couple of different ways and a couple of things you didn't cover and another type of locking diff! Viscous coupling or transfer case :roll:

Right you have 2 styles of 4wd (to make it simple) part time 4wd and full time 4wd.

OK so part-time 4wd. These systems are meant only for use only in low-traction conditions, such as off-road or on snow or ice and are what most offroad 4x4's have and this is accessed by the transfer case (extra lever/button) in your 4wd (and gives also access to low range) this is usualy geared or chain driven and allows no slip (is locked).

Full-time four-wheel drive. These systems are designed to function on all types of surfaces, both on- and off-road, and cannot be switched off (usualy) these are the systems found in most cars, some landrovers, and other makes I am sure these are allways in 4wd and have another diff (with a locking mechanism in landrovers) or a viscous coupling. This is to allow some slipage between the front and back wheel's, The viscous coupling is commonly used to link the back wheels to the front wheels (through a diff) so that when one set of wheels (both front or both back) starts to slip, torque will be transferred to the other set.

Right so out of the gearbox and into the transfer case, viscous coupling or diff what are these for and why are they here?

Well these all-wheel-drive vehicles need a differential between each set of drive wheels, and they need one between the front and the back wheels and we need to power these somehow, because the front wheels travel a different distance through a turn than the rear wheels they need to be disconnected or allow slippage on very grippy surfaces (roads clay etc) this is why we have part time, a viscous coupling or a diff system so

What is a differential:

The differential is a device that splits the engine torque two ways, allowing each output to spin at a different speed. This is all the centre diff does, the diff the driveshaft goes into (between the wheels) is a bit different.

Why do You Need a Differential ?

Car wheels spin at different speeds, especially when turning. In a turn each wheel travels a different distance through the turn, the inside wheels travel a shorter distance than the outside wheels. Since speed is equal to the distance traveled divided by the time it takes to go that distance, the wheels that travel a shorter distance travel at a lower speed. Also the front wheels travel a different distance than the rear wheels, the differential is the only thing that allow's all this to happen without screaching tires and bad road manners.

Right we have the power running down the driveshaft to the diffs between the wheels what do they do?

The final differentials have three jobs: (when in 4wd)

To aim the engine power at the hub’s (that the wheels attach to)
To act as the final gear reduction in the vehicle, slowing the rotational speed of the transmission one final time before it hits the wheels (via the hub’s)
To transmit the power to the wheels while allowing them to rotate at different speeds (This is the one that earned the differential its name.)

Ok in these two final differentials what types are there and what are the differences

OK Open diff The open differential always applies the same amount of torque (turning force) to each wheel. Now what happens if one of the drive wheels has good traction, and the other one is on ice? This is where the problem with open differentials comes in.

Remember that the open differential always applies the same torque to both wheels, it doesn't take much torque to make a tire slip on ice so when the wheel with good traction is only getting the very very small amount of torque that can be applied to the other wheel on ice, your car isn't going to move very much.

Limited Slip differentials use various mechanisms to allow normal differential action when going around turns. When a wheel slips, they allow more torque to be transferred to the non-slipping wheel (inside wheel). This type of LSD has all of the same components as an open differential, but it adds a spring pack and a set of clutches.

The spring pack pushes the side gears against the clutches, which are attached to the cage. Both side gears spin with the cage when both wheels are moving at the same speed, and the clutches aren't really needed -- the only time the clutches step in is when something happens to make one wheel spin faster than the other, as in a turn. The clutches fight this behavior, wanting both wheels to go the same speed. If one wheel wants to spin faster than the other, it must first overpower the clutch. The stiffness of the springs combined with the friction of the clutch determine how much torque it takes to overpower it.

Getting back to the situation in which one drive wheel is on the ice and the other one has good traction: With this limited slip differential, even though the wheel on the ice is not able to transmit much torque to the ground, the other wheel will still get the torque it needs to move. The torque supplied to the wheel not on the ice is equal to the amount of torque it takes to overpower the clutches. The result is that you can move forward, although still not with the full power of your car.

The locking differential is useful for serious off-road vehicles. This type of differential has the same parts as an open differential, but adds an electric, pneumatic or hydraulic mechanism to lock the two output pinions together.
Lockers come in two types Selectable Locking and Auto unlocking
Selectable locking diffs are open diffs until a force is applied to it like ARB air lockers
Auto Unlocking diffs are always locked and sprung to unlock when one wheel is forces to over run the other (this style you can hear clicking on roads) This second type is a lot cheaper than the selectable ones but have disadvantages.

Again in the ice situation both wheels will turn at the same speed so you can move away at normal speed as long as one of the wheels has some grip.

OK why do not all manufactures put in LSD or lockers in 4wd’s from factory?

Well LSD and Auto unlockers have worse road manners (push) on corners and selectable lockers are not cheap also there are a whole lot of different types and styles of every type, they cost more and are another thing that wears or can break. They also increase the stress on the rest of the drive line, but they make such a huge difference to offroading that some put up with their behaviours and learn to drive with their particular soloutions characteristics.

Right so what are manual and Auto locking hubs?[\b]

Part-time four-wheel-drives usually have locking hubs on the front wheels. When four-wheel drive is not engaged, the locking hubs are used to disconnect the front wheels from the front differential, half-shafts (the shafts that connect the differential to the hub) and driveshaft. This allows the differential, half-shafts and driveshaft to stop spinning when the car is in two-wheel drive, saving wear and tear on those parts and improving fuel-economy.

[b]Manual hubs
are locked and unlocked when you are at rest and you have to physicaly get out and lock or unlock them.

Auto Hubs are controled by a computer or gear stick selection and will engage and disengege when the computher thinks it should rather than when you want them to Quite a few auto hubs disengage when you select reverse sharp corners and other pre programed times, not good if you are in a mud hole.


OK with all that I hope this helps you look for more answers on the net and understand what you read on there.

:EDIT Sorry for the megapost :oops: but now we have a reference :shock:
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Post by rangimotors »

mate!! we were all thinking it but who had the time to right it all out, i reckon you should save that and copy and paste it when ever needed 8)
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Post by TJ »

You have far too much time on your hands!!!!! Good write up.

Although there are some unusual combinations like Wranglers with locked front hubs that cannot be deactivated, but its a part-time system!!
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Post by Steve_t647 »

:oops: It was a slow work day waiting for ages for something to turn up that the whole day could not proceed without :oops:

there are a few diferent combinations just wait for the how an auto transmission works post :shock:

Kidding honest!
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Post by mercutio »

TJ wrote:You have far too much time on your hands!!!!! Good write up.

Although there are some unusual combinations like Wranglers with locked front hubs that cannot be deactivated, but its a part-time system!!


the mudcedes is like that too just adds a little to the wear and tear and the fuel consumption really
my 4wd is not a truck

old mercedes never die but sometimes they do need some love

older cars are good,mercedes are better,older mercedes are the best
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Post by TJ »

Fuel economy :roll: Whats that? I buy fuel and support an economy, I guess thats fuel economy for a Jeep.
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Azza
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Post by Azza »

Awesome writeup Steve, nicely worded...

So am I right to assume that having engaged manual hubs on the front wheels is the same functionality as having a locking diff or lsd on the front??

Which begs the question, can you have hubs on the rear? or is the only option to have a lokka (locking diff or lsd)
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Post by TJ »

Azza wrote:So am I right to assume that having engaged manual hubs on the front wheels is the same functionality as having a locking diff or lsd on the front??

Which begs the question, can you have hubs on the rear? or is the only option to have a lokka (locking diff or lsd)


Locking diffs are a completely different beast. Hubs lock the wheels so that when the drive is engaged, the wheels will get the power from the diff action. Locking diff will make sure the power is sent to both the wheels. This is a simplistic definition.
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Azza
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Post by Azza »

TJ wrote:
Azza wrote:So am I right to assume that having engaged manual hubs on the front wheels is the same functionality as having a locking diff or lsd on the front??

Which begs the question, can you have hubs on the rear? or is the only option to have a lokka (locking diff or lsd)


Locking diffs are a completely different beast. Hubs lock the wheels so that when the drive is engaged, the wheels will get the power from the diff action. Locking diff will make sure the power is sent to both the wheels. This is a simplistic definition.


yup... I accept that but...

With hubs locked and 'engaged' in the front, both wheels turn..
With an 'engaged' locking diff, lsd etc, both wheels turn...

Am I missing something? have I completely got it wrong? :? :shock:
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Post by NJV6 »

Hubs
Hubs lock at the front wheels. All they do is lock the hub which the wheel is bolted onto, to the cv and stub axle.

So when your driving and your hubs are unlocked and transfer case is in 2WD the front cv's & diff does not turn.

You can then put the Transfer in 4WD and so the front diff & cv's will turn but no drive will get the the actual wheels if your hubs are unlocked...

Diffs
Because your diff is still unlocked effectively the drive can still only go to one of the front wheels, hence the 'diff lock' and drive to both front wheels.

Of course a 'diff lock' is of no use if your hubs are unlocked :wink:
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Post by Goose »

Hi Azza, I'll try and put it into laymans terms. I see what it is you're asking, and I'll explain it to you the way it was explained to me, as I thought a similar way :wink:

2wd: engine drives gearbox, gearbox turns driveshaft, driveshaft drives diff.

4wd: (part time) engine drives gearbox, gearbox drives transfer case, transfer case turns 2 driveshafts (1 to the front diff, 1 to rear), driveshafts drives diffs.

Open diff: In simple terms, this means only 1 wheel will get power at any one time, but it could be either of the 2 wheels. The power will go to the wheel with the least resistance. IE, when your in a rut, you'll notice the wheel that's "off"(or has less contact with) the ground will spin, the one with contact to the ground wont.
So, if you have a 4wd with 2 open diffs,(front and rear) only 2 wheels will drive at any given time.

Limited slip: An LSD has (easy speak here!) special thingies in it, when a wheel starts to spin, it will transfer some power to the other wheel, to aid traction. However (as mentioned above) if the force trying to stop the a wheel spinning, like having a wheel stuck behind a rock/log etc, is too strong, it will only spin 1 wheel again.

Locker: Locks the diff so both wheels turn always. (there's a little more to it, I'm just trying to keep it simple :wink: )

Hubs: when you're in 2wd, with hubs unlocked, the front driveshaft doesn't turn, or the diff. When you engage 4wd (assuming you have manual hubs) the driveshaft and diff will turn, but without the hubs locked, it wont drive the wheels.
The locking hub makes a connection between your diff/axles and your wheel. Unlocking a hub allows the wheel to spin free of the drive system.
Auto hubs are exactly that :D They lock themselves...... automatically :shock:
"edit" Oh yeah, your rear wheels are connected to your driveline at all times, which is why you dont have the bit that sticks out in the middle of the front wheels(manual/auto locking hub) on the back wheels. The locking hub means you can disconnect the front wheels from the driveline, to help with on-road driving manners as well as wear and tear.

As for the full time 4wd, well.... it supplies power to all 4 wheels constantly(but still only 1 of each the front and back set of wheels unless you have a LSD/locker) but (once again, mentioned above) also allows the power to alter between the front and back set of wheels, (via diff/viscous coupling)because of the "front/rear wheels turning at different speeds" thing.

To those of you picking huge holes in what I'm saying (on a technical basis) I think this is an easy way to understand it, allbeit basic. I had it explained to me in a technical sense, and I was confused, until someone explained it to me really simply, then the tecnical stuff started to make sense...... :wink:
Last edited by Goose on Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rokhound »

Jsut as a quick add on to Gooses explanation,

When you are told that a "full time 4wd" or "a AWD" has a centre diff lock, it essentially only means that it becomes like any other part time 4wd system. Ie power will go to front diff and back diff in equal amounts.
Some car dealers addvertise a centre diff lock as though it is something special as atraction aid, and this is just plain wrong.
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Post by Azza »

I think i'm finally getting the hang of it :lol: the info here has been an awsome learning curve for me!

I only wish that this sort of topic could be communicated via a kiddies pop-up book with lots of pictures and simple descriptions :wink: :lol:
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