We are have the meeting for the SI winch challenge serries this weekend.
Does any one have any suggestions about what should be in them?
Rick
Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
As a possible contestant (when I get my pos sorted) I personally think some form of rollover protection should be in place 4 point cage at least.
Other than that I think the rules used in previous si challenges are bang on, keep up the good work for the sport
Other than that I think the rules used in previous si challenges are bang on, keep up the good work for the sport
swb lux with 7mge, trailgear crossover, trailgear rear lift kit, custom front bar, runva 1200lb winch, custom snorkel, 37" Mtrs, custom deck, lockright in the rear.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Hi Rick, how many classes are you thinking of ?.
My thoughts, Open or Super class in line with currant NZ winch challenge rules, no point in re-writing the rule book so we have an easy cross over, perhaps with out the 28day WOF rule and the Plasma rope rule.
Club-mans, for your better set up club type vehicles, keep it fairly open but without Roll Cages, use fixed winching points to do away with ground anchors, steel cables and set the course accordingly so they are not vehicle wreckers, most people accept a bit of damage but expect to be able to drive there vehicle home at the end of the day.
Good luck with your meeting.
YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERONE SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL PLEASE YOURSELF,
FITZY.
My thoughts, Open or Super class in line with currant NZ winch challenge rules, no point in re-writing the rule book so we have an easy cross over, perhaps with out the 28day WOF rule and the Plasma rope rule.
Club-mans, for your better set up club type vehicles, keep it fairly open but without Roll Cages, use fixed winching points to do away with ground anchors, steel cables and set the course accordingly so they are not vehicle wreckers, most people accept a bit of damage but expect to be able to drive there vehicle home at the end of the day.
Good luck with your meeting.
YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERONE SO YOU MIGHT AS WELL PLEASE YOURSELF,
FITZY.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
why not roll cages ,,, could save your arse one day! could be the best $600 ish dollars we ever spend on a comp truck does not have to be a full exo cage, just a internal bars maybe???,we spend more than that on other stuff for our trucks, inside roll cage for peice of mind that you can walk away from a roll over not alot money really,but hey what would i know just my 2cents worth
Vince
Vince
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
hiya guys,
for the norwest event in march (north island) we have determained that roll over protection is a must for the property we are on. we are calling for a hoop and rear stays as minimum, harness must also be fitted, (a seatbelt is no good in rollover situations). wire rope can be used with the dampener kept in the center third. hybrid trucks are ok as long as they are certified road legal - ie reg and wof with cert plate, the 28 day wof is there to prevent people getting a wof then modifing there truck, ie lift kit etc .we also have a stage that is run at the Kumeu a&h show so the trucks need to be run on the road to get from the farm property to the showgrounds
the clubman class will be mixed in with the challenge class so they can watch and learn, the track setter is making them do the challenge tracks with any sections too dangerous or unsuitable being detoured around. this also seperates the points scoring as the tracks will not be entirely the same for both classes.
you also have to remember that you are running a competition and it is a timed event so when the flag drops and the red mist comes down sometimes people do not make the right decisions and it is easy to get into trouble,if we can keep them a bit safer by making roll cages compulsory in both classes so much the better. as an event director i know that i can sleep a bit easier with that rule in there!
a few years ago on this property we had a club trip where one of our members rolled over 13 times, he and his wife were both saved from serious injury because he had installed a hoop and stays, there is no way his std roof would have protected him in this instance.
good luck with your comps and if you wanna chat give us a call on 0274809361
Cheers,
Rob Chisholm
Norwest OHV Club
for the norwest event in march (north island) we have determained that roll over protection is a must for the property we are on. we are calling for a hoop and rear stays as minimum, harness must also be fitted, (a seatbelt is no good in rollover situations). wire rope can be used with the dampener kept in the center third. hybrid trucks are ok as long as they are certified road legal - ie reg and wof with cert plate, the 28 day wof is there to prevent people getting a wof then modifing there truck, ie lift kit etc .we also have a stage that is run at the Kumeu a&h show so the trucks need to be run on the road to get from the farm property to the showgrounds
the clubman class will be mixed in with the challenge class so they can watch and learn, the track setter is making them do the challenge tracks with any sections too dangerous or unsuitable being detoured around. this also seperates the points scoring as the tracks will not be entirely the same for both classes.
you also have to remember that you are running a competition and it is a timed event so when the flag drops and the red mist comes down sometimes people do not make the right decisions and it is easy to get into trouble,if we can keep them a bit safer by making roll cages compulsory in both classes so much the better. as an event director i know that i can sleep a bit easier with that rule in there!
a few years ago on this property we had a club trip where one of our members rolled over 13 times, he and his wife were both saved from serious injury because he had installed a hoop and stays, there is no way his std roof would have protected him in this instance.
good luck with your comps and if you wanna chat give us a call on 0274809361
Cheers,
Rob Chisholm
Norwest OHV Club
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Spot on Rob.
Can't add much to what you've said. Roll over protection is a must. You have to remember that vehicle failure can also cause injury. Jammed throttle cable is just one possibility.
And if you don't want to install a cage for your self, then do it for the organisers. Its their heads that will roll if you kill yourself out there.
Cheers
Jungle
Can't add much to what you've said. Roll over protection is a must. You have to remember that vehicle failure can also cause injury. Jammed throttle cable is just one possibility.
And if you don't want to install a cage for your self, then do it for the organisers. Its their heads that will roll if you kill yourself out there.
Cheers
Jungle
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Rick,
Appropriate vehicle specs are relative to the terrain the vehicles are expected to compete on, so a bit of clarification might be handy. That is, are Clubman class vehicles competing on the same stages and terrain as normal challenge class?
Appropriate vehicle specs are relative to the terrain the vehicles are expected to compete on, so a bit of clarification might be handy. That is, are Clubman class vehicles competing on the same stages and terrain as normal challenge class?
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
GQTROL wrote:Rick,
Appropriate vehicle specs are relative to the terrain the vehicles are expected to compete on, so a bit of clarification might be handy. That is, are Clubman class vehicles competing on the same stages and terrain as normal challenge class?
Do you guys have a tyre size limit on Clubmans class or is it same rules as open?
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
hiya shane,
at this stage we have kept tire size open for our event as we feel there are a lot of club guys up here with over 33s on their trucks, we want these guys to be involved as well. tire size is not the be all and end all as the suzies have proved over the past few years with there placings in the north island comps.
at this stage we have kept tire size open for our event as we feel there are a lot of club guys up here with over 33s on their trucks, we want these guys to be involved as well. tire size is not the be all and end all as the suzies have proved over the past few years with there placings in the north island comps.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
on another note, there is nothing stopping a fully fleged winch comp truck competing in the clubmans class, however there is the rule regarding the orginizers right to refuse any entry thereby giving them the chance to guide entrants into the right class for them. what we want is for people to get the experiance with the event format so the sport can grow. what we are finding in the north here is that the guys doing it for a while have evolved there trucks from club class into challenge class because they have been bitten by the bug! (just like you started 4x4ing in a shiny and now youve got trail trophys all over your truck now.) that in turn has let the guys coming up see what has been done to the trucks and what to aim for but at the same time if you have a capable club truck you can get in there and have a go also.
The club class will not or ever have the mana of the challange class so there is always room for the sport to grow.
The club class will not or ever have the mana of the challange class so there is always room for the sport to grow.
-
PeterVahry
- Hard Yaka
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Auckland
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Rob outlined several of the risks well and mentions his desire to be able to sleep easily as an event director. The 4x4 Challenge NZ rules should be the basis of all winch challenges in NZ as they have been developed from experience over nearly 10 years in NZ and Australia.
The basis of those rules is safety and the core issue of risk management. There is room for event organisers to vary the rules to suit circumstances but it should be done with care. Supplementary rules are a component of almost every event. Competitors might be asking for cheaper ways of taking part and be willing to chance it with relatively basic safety equipment, but from an organisers view, this has big risks.
I know that I have no desire to ever have to explain to a family that a competitor has been maimed or killed. Especially if it was because there was pressure to lower safety standards to allow them to compete. Risk management is the basic defence in the inevitable Court case and that is what the 4x4 Challenges NZ rules are based around. Even if an incident does not get to Court the time and stress on the organiser will ensure that their life is tough. We at 4x4 Challenges NZ too are making a commitment by even providing rules, as it is likely that we would finish up in Court justifying why they are written the way they are!
When 4x4 Challenges required helmets for the Denny's Challenges we were initially laughed at by the Australians, but after the event they demanded that helmets had to be used in Australia. We quickly introduced full harnesses after a death in Australia as a result of using lap /diagonal belts in competition. Every rule has a reason and many can be identified to individuals.
Winch challenge organisers have been lucky so far with the low injury rate, but there must be constant vigilance, as with the growing numbers of events and competitors, the odds are getting worse. Competitors who don't comply with safety rules must be refused entries. Risk management is everything and 4x4 Challenges NZ continue to monitor events and vehicle trends to try to ensure that those risks are being addressed.
Why re-invent rules when we all know that the event planning itself will consume more time than envisaged! As Rob states, the "red mist" when the clock starts will often have drivers pushing their multiple tonne vehicles to their limits and beyond, irrespective of whether they are supposed to be a lesser category of competitor.
Work with 4x4 Challenges NZ by joining the club and help us guide the direction and safety of winch challenges. Talk with our rules team if you've an idea, but don't re-invent things because you think we don't understand your particular region.
4x4 Challenges NZ are happy to have our rules used in the way that they have been written and would like to think that those who've "borrowed " them recognise the effort that has gone into building those rules both locally and in conjunction with the Australian movement. We would be pleased to be able to say that we sanction those events that do follow the rules and be able to work with those organisers to create variations if required for specific reasons. We've compiled a whole dossier of budget plans, check lists, risk planning material etc and it's all available to help organisers who ask. A 2008 version of the rules is due to be published very soon.... once they are back from the lawyers!
From a personal viewpoint looking at a "clubman" class, I believe that the majority of the safety rules must remain, but there could be allowances for some changes. A 4 point roll cage is a minimum. Wire rope could be used but the damper needs to be more to the middle and handling rules strictly enforced. (the older pre-synthetic rope rules could be adopted but frankly the use of two types of rules for dampers etc will be difficult to instill into marshalls).
Tyre size could be reduced if the objective is to reduce the entry costs. If it remains at the maximum then it seems questionable why the competitor can't conform to standard rules.
Full harness type belts must remain a requirement to prevent a repeat of the Australian scenario.
The wire cargo barrier can only be removed if there is absolutely nothing stored loose behind the front seats and inside the cab area (except the existing exemption items on the floor in front). A fabric net is still strongly recommended as a minimum.
Full road legal status and WOF within 28 days must be retained but some of the restrictions on chassis and body changes for the "big boys" could be relaxed for entry levels. However it should be realised that most of those restrictions are to manage the levels of expense by competitors, which is what the new class is pushing for.
Event courses change with use and weather so the terrain factor can not be relied on to provide a safer course for lesser vehicles. Certainly some course changes could lower the potential risks and are worth implementing but we all know that 4x4's can roll on flat ground!
Talk with 4x4 Challenges NZ, join the club and be involved, don't stand outside and talk about us... we're volunteers too.
Peter Vahry
4x4 Challenges NZ Inc president
http://www.4x4challenges.co.nz
The basis of those rules is safety and the core issue of risk management. There is room for event organisers to vary the rules to suit circumstances but it should be done with care. Supplementary rules are a component of almost every event. Competitors might be asking for cheaper ways of taking part and be willing to chance it with relatively basic safety equipment, but from an organisers view, this has big risks.
I know that I have no desire to ever have to explain to a family that a competitor has been maimed or killed. Especially if it was because there was pressure to lower safety standards to allow them to compete. Risk management is the basic defence in the inevitable Court case and that is what the 4x4 Challenges NZ rules are based around. Even if an incident does not get to Court the time and stress on the organiser will ensure that their life is tough. We at 4x4 Challenges NZ too are making a commitment by even providing rules, as it is likely that we would finish up in Court justifying why they are written the way they are!
When 4x4 Challenges required helmets for the Denny's Challenges we were initially laughed at by the Australians, but after the event they demanded that helmets had to be used in Australia. We quickly introduced full harnesses after a death in Australia as a result of using lap /diagonal belts in competition. Every rule has a reason and many can be identified to individuals.
Winch challenge organisers have been lucky so far with the low injury rate, but there must be constant vigilance, as with the growing numbers of events and competitors, the odds are getting worse. Competitors who don't comply with safety rules must be refused entries. Risk management is everything and 4x4 Challenges NZ continue to monitor events and vehicle trends to try to ensure that those risks are being addressed.
Why re-invent rules when we all know that the event planning itself will consume more time than envisaged! As Rob states, the "red mist" when the clock starts will often have drivers pushing their multiple tonne vehicles to their limits and beyond, irrespective of whether they are supposed to be a lesser category of competitor.
Work with 4x4 Challenges NZ by joining the club and help us guide the direction and safety of winch challenges. Talk with our rules team if you've an idea, but don't re-invent things because you think we don't understand your particular region.
4x4 Challenges NZ are happy to have our rules used in the way that they have been written and would like to think that those who've "borrowed " them recognise the effort that has gone into building those rules both locally and in conjunction with the Australian movement. We would be pleased to be able to say that we sanction those events that do follow the rules and be able to work with those organisers to create variations if required for specific reasons. We've compiled a whole dossier of budget plans, check lists, risk planning material etc and it's all available to help organisers who ask. A 2008 version of the rules is due to be published very soon.... once they are back from the lawyers!
From a personal viewpoint looking at a "clubman" class, I believe that the majority of the safety rules must remain, but there could be allowances for some changes. A 4 point roll cage is a minimum. Wire rope could be used but the damper needs to be more to the middle and handling rules strictly enforced. (the older pre-synthetic rope rules could be adopted but frankly the use of two types of rules for dampers etc will be difficult to instill into marshalls).
Tyre size could be reduced if the objective is to reduce the entry costs. If it remains at the maximum then it seems questionable why the competitor can't conform to standard rules.
Full harness type belts must remain a requirement to prevent a repeat of the Australian scenario.
The wire cargo barrier can only be removed if there is absolutely nothing stored loose behind the front seats and inside the cab area (except the existing exemption items on the floor in front). A fabric net is still strongly recommended as a minimum.
Full road legal status and WOF within 28 days must be retained but some of the restrictions on chassis and body changes for the "big boys" could be relaxed for entry levels. However it should be realised that most of those restrictions are to manage the levels of expense by competitors, which is what the new class is pushing for.
Event courses change with use and weather so the terrain factor can not be relied on to provide a safer course for lesser vehicles. Certainly some course changes could lower the potential risks and are worth implementing but we all know that 4x4's can roll on flat ground!
Talk with 4x4 Challenges NZ, join the club and be involved, don't stand outside and talk about us... we're volunteers too.
Peter Vahry
4x4 Challenges NZ Inc president
http://www.4x4challenges.co.nz
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
As mentioned in earlier posts tyre sizes dont really have any relevance as the price between 35s and 33s in for example would only equate to +-$150 and if research is done you can buy amsteel blue winch cable for not much more than the price of steel. The poor bastard pullin it out would appreciate the synthetic rope though.
The real cost in setting up a truck up is the safety aspects which you cant really put a monetry value on. One thing I would like to see is a better understanding of cage requirements as there is no provision in the current challenges rule book that has any specs for externaly mounted cages which is what I would look to mount to mine.
As previously outlined maybe this is better left as a sport that evolves from club level trucks whose drivers have the bug to take it to the next level.
Thats my 2c worth as a future competitor, I would rather wait till my truck is ready to compete with the bigboys than rush in and do the playschool tracks
The real cost in setting up a truck up is the safety aspects which you cant really put a monetry value on. One thing I would like to see is a better understanding of cage requirements as there is no provision in the current challenges rule book that has any specs for externaly mounted cages which is what I would look to mount to mine.
As previously outlined maybe this is better left as a sport that evolves from club level trucks whose drivers have the bug to take it to the next level.
Thats my 2c worth as a future competitor, I would rather wait till my truck is ready to compete with the bigboys than rush in and do the playschool tracks
swb lux with 7mge, trailgear crossover, trailgear rear lift kit, custom front bar, runva 1200lb winch, custom snorkel, 37" Mtrs, custom deck, lockright in the rear.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Hi there,
After reading all the above posts i am begining to wonder why you just dont stick to one class for everyone as the lines of separation are becoming slightly blurred between the two classes, if theres no difference between tyre sizes and roll cages, lockers ect ,where exactily is the difference? -all it seems is that there is a hard track / easy track option?
I've got no problem with the ways everyone is trying to get new blood into the sport but at the end of the day if the classes are so similar why not just have one class, you can still learn just as much finishing second to last against the top trucks as you can by winning against the clubmans?
Hope i havent offended anyone.
Cheers
After reading all the above posts i am begining to wonder why you just dont stick to one class for everyone as the lines of separation are becoming slightly blurred between the two classes, if theres no difference between tyre sizes and roll cages, lockers ect ,where exactily is the difference? -all it seems is that there is a hard track / easy track option?
I've got no problem with the ways everyone is trying to get new blood into the sport but at the end of the day if the classes are so similar why not just have one class, you can still learn just as much finishing second to last against the top trucks as you can by winning against the clubmans?
Hope i havent offended anyone.
Cheers
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Well if Madaz hasnt offended anyone, heres my shot at it.
Two classes would be fantastic.
If I hadnt needed a 6 point cage to compete then I would have allready done one or two comps, HOWEVER, I totally agree that a 4 point should be a minumim.
Wire rope would take away some scarry price issues, but if amstel can be bought for wire rope money then lets all use that (and tell me where the hell to get it from at those prices)
Tyre size limits seem funny, we all know that a hilux on 33"s will go further than a safari on 35"s (ignore my nissan joke, but see my point). However as this class is aimed at low $ then maybe a tyre size rule will work (just gotta watch that big buck suzi running 32"s)
We totally need some new blood in this sport and if someone with a $5000 hilux on 33"s with a winch and a roll bar can have a go then thats perfect.
As a side note, roll cage rules need to be made easier. As stated above there are no rules that cater to exo cages (and i know they dont suit our desired pc image, but neither do my big angry tires, so go jump). Yes there are 4 sets of rules to build to, but hell, right now i cant even remember what I built my cage to, and if a scruitineer(sp) ever pulls me up on it, I'm going to have a hell of a time proving I comply (but I can).
I guess I should have put the roll cage bit on 4x4challenges site, about 3 months ago, sorry.
In this thread it seems the majority agree, 4 point cage. Some tyre rule, perhaps just muddies rather than stating a size.
Also need some kind of locker rule, only lsds?
And ya know what? I reckon thats worth more than 2c.
Arron.
027 278 2556.
Two classes would be fantastic.
If I hadnt needed a 6 point cage to compete then I would have allready done one or two comps, HOWEVER, I totally agree that a 4 point should be a minumim.
Wire rope would take away some scarry price issues, but if amstel can be bought for wire rope money then lets all use that (and tell me where the hell to get it from at those prices)
Tyre size limits seem funny, we all know that a hilux on 33"s will go further than a safari on 35"s (ignore my nissan joke, but see my point). However as this class is aimed at low $ then maybe a tyre size rule will work (just gotta watch that big buck suzi running 32"s)
We totally need some new blood in this sport and if someone with a $5000 hilux on 33"s with a winch and a roll bar can have a go then thats perfect.
As a side note, roll cage rules need to be made easier. As stated above there are no rules that cater to exo cages (and i know they dont suit our desired pc image, but neither do my big angry tires, so go jump). Yes there are 4 sets of rules to build to, but hell, right now i cant even remember what I built my cage to, and if a scruitineer(sp) ever pulls me up on it, I'm going to have a hell of a time proving I comply (but I can).
I guess I should have put the roll cage bit on 4x4challenges site, about 3 months ago, sorry.
In this thread it seems the majority agree, 4 point cage. Some tyre rule, perhaps just muddies rather than stating a size.
Also need some kind of locker rule, only lsds?
And ya know what? I reckon thats worth more than 2c.
Arron.
027 278 2556.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
[quote="shortylux"]Well if Madaz hasnt offended anyone, heres my shot at it.
Wire rope would take away some scarry price issues, but if amstel can be bought for wire rope money then lets all use that (and tell me where the hell to get it from at those prices)
I will pm you the link
Wire rope would take away some scarry price issues, but if amstel can be bought for wire rope money then lets all use that (and tell me where the hell to get it from at those prices)
I will pm you the link
swb lux with 7mge, trailgear crossover, trailgear rear lift kit, custom front bar, runva 1200lb winch, custom snorkel, 37" Mtrs, custom deck, lockright in the rear.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
The three rules that I think will defiantly be in there are
1 33" tyre
2 One traction aid
3 4 point roll cage(removable)
Who knows?? that would depend on the track lay out, terrain and organizer.
Best to think that of worst case scenario.
Personally I think that wire rope should be banned! Its amazing how people will spend $2000 on tyres happily to get a bit further, yet complain about $300 on synthetic rope for their own safety, go figure.
Rick
1 33" tyre
2 One traction aid
3 4 point roll cage(removable)
Appropriate vehicle specs are relative to the terrain the vehicles are expected to compete on, so a bit of clarification might be handy. That is, are Clubman class vehicles competing on the same stages and terrain as normal challenge class?
Who knows?? that would depend on the track lay out, terrain and organizer.
Best to think that of worst case scenario.
Personally I think that wire rope should be banned! Its amazing how people will spend $2000 on tyres happily to get a bit further, yet complain about $300 on synthetic rope for their own safety, go figure.
Rick
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
OK I do agree with the Roll over protection and Plasma . But let's not forget this is Club mans class that I see as being for your better set up grade 5++ vehicles . In the group mainly ORE that I have had a few trips away with , we call these hard trips the vehicles are well set up Club Type vehicles and range in tyre size from 31" on a Suzuki to 37" on a Toyota and Nissan and most sizes in between, some vehicles have no traction aids and some are double locked, we have all done tracks that are as tough as I think we should be looking at for Club mans type winch challenge events, may be A little harder with some compulsory winching stages thrown in.
Now some people are talking tyre size and traction aids as rules, this will limit club type vehicles, the very thing that the class should be setting up for, in other words I can't enter in my double diff locked 35" Landcruiser that is definitely not a fully set up challenge vehicle. This class should be set up for those that want to have a go, no speed sections, have a max finishing time rather than actual timing and no prizes. It should be a chance to compete and match you and your vehicle against other Club type vehicles.
YOUR NOT COMPETING FOR A SHEEP STATION ,
FITZY.
Now some people are talking tyre size and traction aids as rules, this will limit club type vehicles, the very thing that the class should be setting up for, in other words I can't enter in my double diff locked 35" Landcruiser that is definitely not a fully set up challenge vehicle. This class should be set up for those that want to have a go, no speed sections, have a max finishing time rather than actual timing and no prizes. It should be a chance to compete and match you and your vehicle against other Club type vehicles.
YOUR NOT COMPETING FOR A SHEEP STATION ,
FITZY.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
I've noticed a few comments refering to club trucks with various mods e.g. 35inch tyres, twin lockers, full cages ect.
Whats the difference between a club truck with all these mods and a so called winch challenge truck?
I thought this was the whole reasoning behind winch challenges, so that you could build yourself a kick ass club truck that was still road legal and have a series of different comps to compete in against like minded trucks?
Whats the difference between a club truck with all these mods and a so called winch challenge truck?
I thought this was the whole reasoning behind winch challenges, so that you could build yourself a kick ass club truck that was still road legal and have a series of different comps to compete in against like minded trucks?
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
haynzy wrote:The real cost in setting up a truck up is the safety aspects which you cant really put a monetry value on. One thing I would like to see is a better understanding of cage requirements as there is no provision in the current challenges rule book that has any specs for externaly mounted cages which is what I would look to mount to mine.
Taken directly from the 4x4Challenges website, the 2007 rules state:
18.1 All vehicles must be fitted with a minimum of a six point roll cage for rollover protection. The roll cage must be manufactured to NZFWDA, CCDA, ORANZ or MANZ specifications.
So for those who don't think the current rules allow for exo cages, take a look at ORANZ rollcage requirements. There are 6 or 8 trucks I can think of in the NI competing with exo's and are well within the rules.
shortylux wrote:Wire rope would take away some scarry price issues, but if amstel can be bought for wire rope money then lets all use that (and tell me where the hell to get it from at those prices)
Arron, ring Tony Delany on 027 497 3745 for Amsteel Blue. Its not the same price as wire rope, but its reasonable.
4wdRick wrote:Appropriate vehicle specs are relative to the terrain the vehicles are expected to compete on, so a bit of clarification might be handy. That is, are Clubman class vehicles competing on the same stages and terrain as normal challenge class?
Who knows?? that would depend on the track lay out, terrain and organizer.
Best to think that of worst case scenario.
Personally I think that wire rope should be banned! Its amazing how people will spend $2000 on tyres happily to get a bit further, yet complain about $300 on synthetic rope for their own safety, go figure.
Rick
So thinking of the worse case scenario, (i.e. clubman vehicles competing on the same stages / hazards as winch challenge vehicles) wouldn't the clubman trucks be exposed to the same dangers as winch challenge and thereby require the same levels of protection?
Curious to know your rational behind that.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
The difference is not so much in the build but in the way the vehicles are driven. A lot of club type vehicles are also daily drivers and in some cases the family vehicle. We need a class so people can enter there local and some case Island events and at the end of the day drive there vehicle home. I am not saying that safety should be compromised in any way but a class for what I am sure you all know as Better set up Club type vehicles would allow your average week end warrior to enter and test his vehicle and skills against other Club vehicles. I for one don't have the money ,resources, time or inclination to try and compete with the Challenge vehicles but would have a go at local Clubmans type events.
FITZY.
FITZY.
-
rangimotors
- Hard Yaka
- Posts: 1631
- Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:00 pm
- Location: chch
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
I'm unsure how practical it is, it seems to make it work there have to be 2 completely different rules and unless the safety factors are kept the same between classes it also seems there would need to be two different tracks? I love the idea of events suited to club trucks that are a toned down version of winch challenges, however if there are 100-200 club set up trucks wanting to enter the club section and 10-20 winch challenge trucks for the big boys section it almost seems we would be in danger of loosing direction and the focus would be taken off the the big boys. At no point would i like the people involved in organising these events to lack time to spend on the big boys section. I think at the lest they would have to be on different days to save a little confusion and to allow the focus and time to be spent on the big boys. I think we are getting pretty close to talking about two different events that we are trying to combine into one..
Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experiance!
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
My thought on tyres for the differents classes are a little different.
I think club class should have a 35" radial MT ie BFG, Cooper, Savero etc. The rule should state it must be this type of tyre and have a max tread depth as well. This removes a lot of cost and also reduces capability.
For the Challenge class I'd like to see the rules changed to be in line with the Oz rules. This this to increase it to 37". At present several of the 37x12.5 radial tyres fit the rules ie Maxxis Trepador 37x12.5 is 36.5x12.5, but something like a BFG Krawler needs to be at 50% tread to fit the rule. The CCDA changed the rule for this reason.
After running one event where cages weren't required for Club class, I won't do it again. 4 point is fine but there MUST be some rollover protection. A 4 point in conjuction with the tyre rule and track changes will keep them safe but also allow the vehicles to remain more standard.
The point of the Club class is to keep the cost down so vehicle mods should be restricted. ie standard suspension. No twin shocks, no coil overs no leaf to coil spring conversions. Of the shelf suspension and lifts only. No wheelbase mods, and no engine transplants. Of the shefl turbo kits for deisels and efi for petrols. You can fit a different model engine ie Hilux from 2.4 to 3.0 desiel or to a 2.7 or 3.0 petrol but the motor has to be from the same year vehicle. Also standard winchs only. So no performance mods to electric other than motor upgrade, so you can fit aftermarket motor but not 24v through 12v, twin motors etc. This includes factory twin motor winchs like the Goodwinch G12. Standard PTO but no hybrid pto setups. No hydraulic unless factory fitted. You can improve the winch by fitting breathers, tie bars but they must not increase performance.
If people want to go beyond this then all they need to do is fit a 6 point cage and they can do what they want. Th safety mods should come before the performance mods anyway.
I think wire is fine as people will only use it once and then go with synthetic so as a way of getting people started it is fine. The disadvantages with wire in a comp are so big that no body will want to keep using it. I did my first comp with wire so I know this from personal experience.
Again MY opinion and alot of these thoughts are similar to what they have done or are doig in Oz.
I think club class should have a 35" radial MT ie BFG, Cooper, Savero etc. The rule should state it must be this type of tyre and have a max tread depth as well. This removes a lot of cost and also reduces capability.
For the Challenge class I'd like to see the rules changed to be in line with the Oz rules. This this to increase it to 37". At present several of the 37x12.5 radial tyres fit the rules ie Maxxis Trepador 37x12.5 is 36.5x12.5, but something like a BFG Krawler needs to be at 50% tread to fit the rule. The CCDA changed the rule for this reason.
After running one event where cages weren't required for Club class, I won't do it again. 4 point is fine but there MUST be some rollover protection. A 4 point in conjuction with the tyre rule and track changes will keep them safe but also allow the vehicles to remain more standard.
The point of the Club class is to keep the cost down so vehicle mods should be restricted. ie standard suspension. No twin shocks, no coil overs no leaf to coil spring conversions. Of the shelf suspension and lifts only. No wheelbase mods, and no engine transplants. Of the shefl turbo kits for deisels and efi for petrols. You can fit a different model engine ie Hilux from 2.4 to 3.0 desiel or to a 2.7 or 3.0 petrol but the motor has to be from the same year vehicle. Also standard winchs only. So no performance mods to electric other than motor upgrade, so you can fit aftermarket motor but not 24v through 12v, twin motors etc. This includes factory twin motor winchs like the Goodwinch G12. Standard PTO but no hybrid pto setups. No hydraulic unless factory fitted. You can improve the winch by fitting breathers, tie bars but they must not increase performance.
If people want to go beyond this then all they need to do is fit a 6 point cage and they can do what they want. Th safety mods should come before the performance mods anyway.
I think wire is fine as people will only use it once and then go with synthetic so as a way of getting people started it is fine. The disadvantages with wire in a comp are so big that no body will want to keep using it. I did my first comp with wire so I know this from personal experience.
Again MY opinion and alot of these thoughts are similar to what they have done or are doig in Oz.
Nissan Terrano coilovers, turboed VH45, Safari axles, and some other stuff.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Shouldnt we try and run one set of rules for all of NZ. Otherwise if people from South want to compete up north and the otherway around there is no problem with what rules to use. I think Peter Vahry's idea of using 4x4 Challenges rules are a good one.
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PeterVahry
- Hard Yaka
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- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Auckland
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Some excellent comments in this discussion and a growing recognition that the existing rules work for the "big boys(and girls)" pretty well. Yes, there are external roll cages on several challenge vehicles. One of the most common reactions from first time competitors has been to have a second look at their roll cage set ups. They have quickly realised that their basic structure, although it may have been an approved design and build, is what they are trusting their life and their winchman's life to. Someone questioned the need to sandwich the panel steel when mounting roll cages... talk to any past competitor and ask why!
Maybe the answer is to not attempt to run integrated classes in the same competition but have a complete "softer" series. I know that the Auckland 4WD Club, when it was the prime host for challenges, used to run small events as training for marshalls, club members who wanted to "have a go" and to test rules for functionality. These were one-day events that gave everyone a chance to play and the variety of stages were set accordingly.
The other alternative as someone else suggested, is for all those who want to play, simply conform to the basic rules and resign themselves to finishing towards the back of the field, but knowing they are part of a top level contest. If you know that you will need to drive home in the same vehicle, then simply compete accordingly. You may even win a stage by using caution and consistency. It's the same as any 4x4 activity... you can push the limits and maybe break stuff, or back off and plan to have a good drive home.
There's a factor that is often overlooked too and that's the number of competitors that can be accommodated over a day in a winch challenge event. If you've got longer stages (which drivers like) and maybe a 1hr DNF limit on a stage then only x number of vehicles can use that stage in a day if all run at close to the DNF time. Fields of 30+ vehicles can be an organisers nightmare and a good number has shown to be around 20.
Peter
Maybe the answer is to not attempt to run integrated classes in the same competition but have a complete "softer" series. I know that the Auckland 4WD Club, when it was the prime host for challenges, used to run small events as training for marshalls, club members who wanted to "have a go" and to test rules for functionality. These were one-day events that gave everyone a chance to play and the variety of stages were set accordingly.
The other alternative as someone else suggested, is for all those who want to play, simply conform to the basic rules and resign themselves to finishing towards the back of the field, but knowing they are part of a top level contest. If you know that you will need to drive home in the same vehicle, then simply compete accordingly. You may even win a stage by using caution and consistency. It's the same as any 4x4 activity... you can push the limits and maybe break stuff, or back off and plan to have a good drive home.
There's a factor that is often overlooked too and that's the number of competitors that can be accommodated over a day in a winch challenge event. If you've got longer stages (which drivers like) and maybe a 1hr DNF limit on a stage then only x number of vehicles can use that stage in a day if all run at close to the DNF time. Fields of 30+ vehicles can be an organisers nightmare and a good number has shown to be around 20.
Peter
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Possibly the track setters should look at designing tracks/hazards that do a minimium amount of damage for all the vechicles not just the clubmans- Then it comes down to the indivdual driver/team as to how hard they want to drive reflects how much damage they incure.
But at the end of the day it is a timed event and as its allready been noted once the red mist comes down common sense goes out the window, is there ever going to be such a thing as a "safe" competive course? Those people who were at the Rotorua Club day last year would back me up on how a safe course, which every one had driven earlier in the day (without dramas) nearly tipped a comp truck on it roof just through the driver taking a slightly different line?
A non damage competive , timed event? Is there such a thing?
Possibly the "club man" class should be run at the organisers own descretion and therefore their own rules and own risks and as a one day event- not a series like we would like to see with all the winch trucks?
But at the end of the day it is a timed event and as its allready been noted once the red mist comes down common sense goes out the window, is there ever going to be such a thing as a "safe" competive course? Those people who were at the Rotorua Club day last year would back me up on how a safe course, which every one had driven earlier in the day (without dramas) nearly tipped a comp truck on it roof just through the driver taking a slightly different line?
A non damage competive , timed event? Is there such a thing?
Possibly the "club man" class should be run at the organisers own descretion and therefore their own rules and own risks and as a one day event- not a series like we would like to see with all the winch trucks?
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
madaz068 wrote:Shouldnt we try and run one set of rules for all of NZ. Otherwise if people from South want to compete up north and the otherway around there is no problem with what rules to use. I think Peter Vahry's idea of using 4x4 Challenges rules are a good one.
From everything I've seen on this subject, that is what everyone wants, but it needs to be done so that eveyone has some input. This is not a dictatorship and good or bad there needs to be a mix of new and old blood in the decision making process.
As I see it at present 4x4 Challenges rules are the best for the Challenge Class and the Clubmans class from the SI comps is a very good starting point for the Club (or whatever) class. 2 consistant classes will be a good thing for the sport!
It appears everyone involved is approachings this from the right point of view and is trying to get one set of rules. Obviously if this can be achieved for this year, then next year we could have a full combined national series!!!!! Now that would be a seriously good thing to happen and I can't wait for an excuse to travel to the SI to race!!!
Nissan Terrano coilovers, turboed VH45, Safari axles, and some other stuff.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
All in all a productive thread, its got everyone thinking which is cool.
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the sandwich plate idea and support it. What I do not under stand is why two 5mm plates would ever be required to sandwich 1.1 (or .9) mm panel steel (oranz rules). Really I can live with that little bit of over kill. I was mearly using that example to point out the fact some of the rules have their ups and downs.
As far as the exo thing goes, yes, you can build to oranz (or ccda or nzfwda). Even then the rules have been adapted to suit an exo rather than designed with exo's in mind. For example, the rules on how you should mount the front hoop to the chassis seem to be quite vauge. Clearly one is not going to sandwich this hoop to the body (pipes on the outside of the cab, where would you sandwich?) also you cant have one one bend in that leg (as per ccda) and weld it to the chassis. Something will be required to fill the gap between the bottom of your straight leg and the 300-400mm to your chassis rail. The rules on what should fill this gap do not really exist, but you can use bits of rules to deduce what would be appropriate. I have been told that mounting to a rock slider is frowned upon, so that option is out (if you are doing your best to please all)
See, I'm not trying to be a bastard. I'm just pointing out an area of the rules that needs some attention/clearification.
(but please dont clear em up just yet though as I have allready built mine)
Back on topic.
Restrained driving can not be relied upon as a safety device. I beleave that any club truck that wanted to compete in a winch challenge would or should allready have a 4 point roll bar. Including the shinys that have to be driven home. Even if the vehicle is driven in an appropriate maner, who is to say that the side of the track doesn't give way under you?
Also what is the difference between a 35" tyred cruiser thats all locked up and a winch truck?, excepting the roll cage. If you ask me that truck has a chance when fighting with the big boys (I'm counting on it)
Thats enough from me.
Cheers.
Arron.
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the sandwich plate idea and support it. What I do not under stand is why two 5mm plates would ever be required to sandwich 1.1 (or .9) mm panel steel (oranz rules). Really I can live with that little bit of over kill. I was mearly using that example to point out the fact some of the rules have their ups and downs.
As far as the exo thing goes, yes, you can build to oranz (or ccda or nzfwda). Even then the rules have been adapted to suit an exo rather than designed with exo's in mind. For example, the rules on how you should mount the front hoop to the chassis seem to be quite vauge. Clearly one is not going to sandwich this hoop to the body (pipes on the outside of the cab, where would you sandwich?) also you cant have one one bend in that leg (as per ccda) and weld it to the chassis. Something will be required to fill the gap between the bottom of your straight leg and the 300-400mm to your chassis rail. The rules on what should fill this gap do not really exist, but you can use bits of rules to deduce what would be appropriate. I have been told that mounting to a rock slider is frowned upon, so that option is out (if you are doing your best to please all)
See, I'm not trying to be a bastard. I'm just pointing out an area of the rules that needs some attention/clearification.
(but please dont clear em up just yet though as I have allready built mine)
Back on topic.
Restrained driving can not be relied upon as a safety device. I beleave that any club truck that wanted to compete in a winch challenge would or should allready have a 4 point roll bar. Including the shinys that have to be driven home. Even if the vehicle is driven in an appropriate maner, who is to say that the side of the track doesn't give way under you?
Also what is the difference between a 35" tyred cruiser thats all locked up and a winch truck?, excepting the roll cage. If you ask me that truck has a chance when fighting with the big boys (I'm counting on it)
Thats enough from me.
Cheers.
Arron.
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
if there are to many rules in the si this year i do not think you will get the same numbers
as last year
basic as for the truck rules
reg
wof with in 28 days
insurance
what chch and top of the south had worked really well
as last year
basic as for the truck rules
reg
wof with in 28 days
insurance
what chch and top of the south had worked really well
toysuzi:(SJ413) 3Y E surf engnie, 6" coil kit (RRO). toy diffs (4.88 R&P) & toy hilux box and t-case.
ifs toy power steering, 6" Bushwacker fender flares (RRO). ect
ifs toy power steering, 6" Bushwacker fender flares (RRO). ect
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
Clubmans Class
I think they should be able to run 35's(I like the idear of MT 35's(not simex,Cross-ply style tyres or say 33' tyres can be simex's but the 35's must be MT style,just a thought...)
Having the club trucks run 33's well make it too hard IMO,going through a heavy bog that even the big boys winch,with smaller tyres,less power and more than likely a less powerfull winch is going to be hard yacker.
Useing the same track for both class's with the occasional by-pass of a very tuff section would be much easyer on the competition organizer.trying to run 2 sets of tracks well be near impossable.
Can Low mount winches run synthetic rope with out melting it or making it go like plastic?I have heard you can buy it with a protective cover on the first 8-10meters? have not seen them myself.
The difference between your average locked club truck on 35's and a Full on Winch challange truck is huge(given the same conditions/driver skill)
4 point cage is a must as many have said,even a simple 4 point cage would probley cost $1500+ buy the time it gets cert,something you got to have though.
Thats my 2c anway
Best of Luck Rick
Shane
I think they should be able to run 35's(I like the idear of MT 35's(not simex,Cross-ply style tyres or say 33' tyres can be simex's but the 35's must be MT style,just a thought...)
Having the club trucks run 33's well make it too hard IMO,going through a heavy bog that even the big boys winch,with smaller tyres,less power and more than likely a less powerfull winch is going to be hard yacker.
Useing the same track for both class's with the occasional by-pass of a very tuff section would be much easyer on the competition organizer.trying to run 2 sets of tracks well be near impossable.
Can Low mount winches run synthetic rope with out melting it or making it go like plastic?I have heard you can buy it with a protective cover on the first 8-10meters? have not seen them myself.
The difference between your average locked club truck on 35's and a Full on Winch challange truck is huge(given the same conditions/driver skill)
4 point cage is a must as many have said,even a simple 4 point cage would probley cost $1500+ buy the time it gets cert,something you got to have though.
Thats my 2c anway
Best of Luck Rick
Shane
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PeterVahry
- Hard Yaka
- Posts: 688
- Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:00 pm
- Location: Auckland
Re: Any sugestions for clubmans rules??
To bring everyone up to date, the 2008 version of the 4x4 Challenges NZ rules can now be found on that website
http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/rules/
There is an online viewing option there too.
http://www.4x4challenges.org.nz/rules/
There is an online viewing option there too.