sinthetic rope fair leads

[mudlva]

hi all

what would be the best material to use to make a new fairlead

I recently just purchased a new synthic rope and am now sorting out the fairleads etc two options at the moment is either alloy or stainless
alloy is easier to work with but will the rope wear into it creating areas where it can then cut the rope

stainless is a lot harder but to get a decent radius for a lead into the hole will be very differcult

ideas would be welcome

[Bulletproof]

hi all

what would be the best material to use to make a new fairlead

I recently just purchased a new synthic rope and am now sorting out the fairleads etc two options at the moment is either alloy or stainless
alloy is easier to work with but will the rope wear into it creating areas where it can then cut the rope

stainless is a lot harder but to get a decent radius for a lead into the hole will be very differcult

ideas would be welcome

What is wrong with the original roller fair lead ?

I just welded a couple of pieces of round steel by the side rollers to stop the synethic rope getting cut.

Cheers Richard

[niblik]

alloy dude..

dissipates heat quickly and is easy to work with..

[mudlva]

alloy dude..

dissipates heat quickly and is easy to work with..

sweet

and my old fairlead has been thru more battles than what is good for it. it was on my list for replacement before i snapped my 11mm rope.

i got some synthetic rope off Keri from Shotover4wd club which has now set me down the road of replacing the standard unit for the new type, which has lead me to the origanal question

anyways i will see if i can sort out a bit off alloy plate or block that will do the job

cheers all

[Shane]

I used 2 U bends from Auto bend(chch)and welded them togeather(steel)
they had a few different sizes of pipe also if you wont a large or small raduis.
I then welded it into the front plate.

Shane

[Terry]

I used 1/2" round steel bar, bent into shape (oxy) and welded into cutout in winch front. Paint needs retouch every now and then, but no biggie, Stainless next time, though...

[mudlva]

Hay Terry very nice
a mate is going to look at work to see if he has any alloy plate kicking around.
if not your idea will be the next to use
thanks for the photo

cheers

[4WDbits]

We have alloy fairleads at a good price and available in different sizes. Bolt on and all done.
With synthetic, make the fairlead about 40mm to 50mm narrower than the drum to help stop a big buildup on the edge of the drum when winching to one side. Nissan factory alloy PTO drum sides will break off with too much synthetic on the side.

[UBZ]

What is wrong with the original roller fair lead ?

I just welded a couple of pieces of round steel by the side rollers to stop the synethic rope getting cut.

Cheers Richard

Do you have a pic of your setup Richard?
I want to use a roller as seen what a worn alloy fiarlead does to plasma rope

[DieselBoy]

My advice is to stay the hell away from an alloy Hawse if your using a plasma rope. In fact, stay away from any Hawse type fairlead if you have the room

Think about your fabric rope, covered in mud and grit, getting ground HARD over an immovable lump of alloy under huge tension and strain.

The wet muddy grit turns into a grinding paste, carving the alloy away and forcing the grit and ground up alloy into the fibers of the rope.

Doesn't sound so good for either the rope or the Hawse now does it??

I wish I had taken photo's of mine before it went to its new home on the front of one the vehicles I have recently sold.

It had grooves in either corner around 5mm deep after two winch challenges and a 24hr tuff truck even.

It ground the crap out of my rope and shredded the over braid to pieces.

Oh, thats on a little light weight Suzuki too

The grooves it wore in the corners trapped the rope and it wouldn't spool correctly.

Logic says a roller fair lead should be the BEST.

No resistance as the rollers move as the rope moves.

No hard surface for the rope to get dragged accoss when its covered in grit and dirt

Get a nice shiny new roller fairlead from www.winch.co.nz and you won't look back

I have been running a roller fairlead for a while now and its awesome, no more damage to the rope and it spools on nicely.

Thats running the Dynex Dux Overbraided 11mm rope.

[albundy]

Shit Pete, you do add a degree of complexity to the debate don't you. haven't thought about it that hard to tell you the truth, but as you say, you have the proof in the pudding. I will inspect my own rope (same as yours) and the hawse as it got a bit of winching last weekend over on the coast. I always assumed the rope would get caught on a roller fairlead. The salesman always say that an alloy hawse should lube the ropwe...I always asked with what?
Al

[Bulletproof]

I agree with "Diesel boy" and think rollers are better. I do a shit load of winching and have never had trouble with the rollers.

The main thing that stuffs the rope with rollers is that the rope builds up and gets cut at the end of the roller.

To over come this I welded a piece of 12mm round rod behind the fairlead to give a biggger overlap between the vertical and horizonal rollers.



I have no trouble at all.
Cheers Richard

[NJV6]

Richard, it was only 12 months ago you were anti synthetic rope. You have now changed?

Glen

[Bulletproof]

Richard, it was only 12 months ago you were anti synthetic rope. You have now changed?

Glen

Hi Glen
I use both but for hard stuff like dragging logs in washouts the steel is miles better. Also pulling up banks over rocks the steel is miles better.

The steel hardly ever breaks but most people I know with synthetic carry a spare one because they are always breaking them.

But for general use the synthetic is more user friendly.

Cheers Richard

[mudlva]

oh dear now i dont know weather to rebuild the old unit, change to the new design or use the new design concept and do it in steel.
might follow terrys design as my winch is in the rear and the rope exits out next to the r/h chassis rail the existing fairlead had to be chopped hard to get it to work and then i found that it was also getting knocked around by rocks etc
basicly i need to reapproach the whole design and maybe use a manufactured round entry similar to Terrys and then mount rollers to the sides of the hole. gennerally the side rollers get used more i sopose

[meatc]

Sorry but I m going to throw up a third option. I use a plastic stuff that is up the list from UHMWPE ( that hard plastic stuff). Cant remember exactly what they called it but I wen t looking for UHMWPE and the guy and the engineering shop said "na we have this harder stuff we use to make bearings." Costs about the same or less than alloy to and comes in all sorts of sizes, shapes and thicknesses.

You can cut it with wood working tools and round the edges with a router. It is a self oiling type of stuff and slippery as. (drill big holes with spade bit not a hole saw.)

It has done 4 winch challenges plus club and play stuff. Barely marked. Mine is a 30mm hole with rounded edge as winch is rear mounted and I also used it as guides for the tube that goes to the rear mounted winch. Tube is bent so it loads the same part of guide and they are unmarked.

[mudlva]

Sorry but I m going to throw up a third option. I use a plastic stuff that is up the list from UHMWPE ( that hard plastic stuff). Cant remember exactly what they called it but I wen t looking for UHMWPE and the guy and the engineering shop said "na we have this harder stuff we use to make bearings." Costs about the same or less than alloy to and comes in all sorts of sizes, shapes and thicknesses.

You can cut it with wood working tools and round the edges with a router. It is a self oiling type of stuff and slippery as. (drill big holes with spade bit not a hole saw.)

It has done 4 winch challenges plus club and play stuff. Barely marked. Mine is a 30mm hole with rounded edge as winch is rear mounted and I also used it as guides for the tube that goes to the rear mounted winch. Tube is bent so it loads the same part of guide and they are unmarked.

ok now we are talking
all be it that you dont know what the plastic was called but what was the shops name and number please
my mates were throwing the idea of a material like what people use for there choping boards and now that you have mentioned your example my ears have defentintly opened up
photos would be awsome if possible

cheers

[meatc]

Hey

I got mine from Truweld in Kerikeri but I would imagine most engineers would have it. I think Blacks (engineering supplies) have it to.

Have an ask at your local engineers. Ask for Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly........ (cant spell last bit) or something harder.

They all use it these days in place of bearings and brass. It is the same family as chopping boards but up the list of hardness a bit. Synthetic rope also comes from the poly family which seems to help too.

Stuff I'm using is 20mm thick for main fairlead and the guides are 30mm so I could make the t section to fit inside the tube. 20mm stuff came off a block and the smaller stuff was cut off the end of a round length.

When cutting and drilling I used a wood bit in a jigsaw (take it slow) and normal drills and spade bits. Hole saws dont clear the crap and it melts back together around the saw.

Will get some pics in the day light tomorrow.

[DieselBoy]

Thats good stuff, self lubes to eh

Makes good suspensions bushes as well

[tgaguy1]

Sorry but I m going to throw up a third option. I use a plastic stuff that is up the list from UHMWPE ( that hard plastic stuff). Cant remember exactly what they called it but I wen t looking for UHMWPE and the guy and the engineering shop said "na we have this harder stuff we use to make bearings." Costs about the same or less than alloy to and comes in all sorts of sizes, shapes and thicknesses.

You can cut it with wood working tools and round the edges with a router. It is a self oiling type of stuff and slippery as. (drill big holes with spade bit not a hole saw.)

It has done 4 winch challenges plus club and play stuff. Barely marked. Mine is a 30mm hole with rounded edge as winch is rear mounted and I also used it as guides for the tube that goes to the rear mounted winch. Tube is bent so it loads the same part of guide and they are unmarked.

I have used oil impregnated plastic for a few years on my Patrol. I have done quite a lot of winching and it shows no sign of wear. I would highly recommend the stuff. It is greasier than UHMWPE so I believe it is better suited to this application. My synthetic rope lasts for over 3 years as well. Only changed the rope due to getting a great deal on new stuff, so retired old rope to reserve duty. You can just make it out in this photo.

[darinz]

Richard, it was only 12 months ago you were anti synthetic rope. You have now changed?

Glen

Hi Glen
I use both but for hard stuff like dragging logs in washouts the steel is miles better. Also pulling up banks over rocks the steel is miles better.

The steel hardly ever breaks but most people I know with synthetic carry a spare one because they are always breaking them.

But for general use the synthetic is more user friendly.

Cheers Richard

Don't use the same roller fairlead for wire and synthetic. When the wire wears the fairlead it make the surface rough then when you run the synthetic over that rough surface it cuts and wears the rope faster.
But I'm with Richard, the only disadvantages with a roller fairlead are the risk of cutting in the corners (which can be solved) and that they take up more room.
One point DB made that I don't agree with is a Hawse fairlead causing more wear due to grit cutting the rope. Both roller and Hawse will cause the same amount of damage and depending on roller size the roller will cause more. With a hawse fairlead it is easier to get a very big radius bend which will cause less internal movement and therefore less rope damage (once rope is dirty) than a roller fairlead. Obviously this is when winch from the side, up or down. There is a reason pulley blocks have such a big radius and while synthetic is more forgiving than wire it still have recommended bend radius's to maintain strength. All the manufacturer spec sheet have this and roller fairlends are way out side (smaller) than this.

[wopass]

totaly disagree with the hawse over roller for less damage, rope dragging over a block of alloy no matter what the radius is still cuts in, this is due to the friction and dragging, this causes damage to the rope also be cause there is friction as you can imagine a fair old bit of it rollers on the other hand roll... funny that and there is no dragging therefore no friction therefore no damage...

friction = damage
no friction = no damage

pretty simple really

and now im off back to the garage cos im probably completely wrong again even tho i know im not

[darinz]

You are completely right about the friction but that wasn't the point I was making. The point is that when the rope bends there is internal movement and combine this with grit in the rope and it causes wear. Roller or not doesn't change this, only the radius of the bend. The bigger the radius the less bending of the rope and so less wear on it. The wear from rubbing on a fairlead is pretty minimal in comparison so the focus should be on the radius of the fairlead NOT whether it is a roller or not.

[DieselBoy]

It was the rubbing, or rather "grinding" over the alloy hawse fairlead that did the damage.

Thats the why the fairlead had 5mm deep grooves in it, the overbraid was worn through and the rope had become a grey colour from ground up alloy in it (rope is orange-ish coloured under the o.braid)

That obviously had nothing to do with the radius

It was quite clearly the friction created by a dirty rope getting dragged over the alloy hawse that ground everything to pieces.

My vote is still with the roller fairlead!!!!!!!

[Bulletproof]

If aluminium and plastics are so good. Why dont they use solid big radius ones instead of pulley blocks.

The answer is because they cause friction.

The same principle applies to fairleads. A roller has to have less friction than a solid radius

Cheers Richard

[mudlva]

ok guys
thanks for the advice.
im going for the plastic idea and been to see Mulford Plastics in Henderson Pl Penrose AK
I have giot a biggish peice of 25mm Tivar 88 premium grade (blue hard stuff)
i have enought to do 2 or three peices and will see how it wears and will changes back to rollers if it does not proform as hoped

regarding the diamater of the rollers verses haws systems
over the years i have broken lots of ropes and ive never broken one at the fairlead its always been at the "crink" on the rope when its been squashed into the drum by rope above,

ive never played with synthetic rope and was hoping that this may not happen as much

cheers Rohan

[meatc]

If aluminium and plastics are so good. Why dont they use solid big radius ones instead of pulley blocks.

The answer is because they cause friction.

The same principle applies to fairleads. A roller has to have less friction than a solid radius

Cheers Richard

No the answer is cost and need. The "plastic" is dearer than ali. Also the blocks are of a design that means the pulley turns hence removing rope on surface slide.

In saying that mine will be modded soon to have "plastic" on each side of the puley to prevent the rope form having the remote possiblity slipping off the side and into the gap.

Should I ever need to rebuild a block I would get a plastic pulley made to fit. No need for grease or bush/bearing inthe centre and heaps lighter. Cost is the big issue though, a blank would be maybe double a new cookes block.

[darinz]

It was the rubbing, or rather "grinding" over the alloy hawse fairlead that did the damage.

Thats the why the fairlead had 5mm deep grooves in it, the overbraid was worn through and the rope had become a grey colour from ground up alloy in it (rope is orange-ish coloured under the o.braid)

That obviously had nothing to do with the radius

It was quite clearly the friction created by a dirty rope getting dragged over the alloy hawse that ground everything to pieces.

My vote is still with the roller fairlead!!!!!!!

We are talking about different things.
The rope has a recomended bend radius.
The rollers on a roller fairlead are smaller than the recomended bend radius so WILL cause internal damage and shorten the rope life. They will cause damage whether the rope is clean or dirty.
Obviously the dirty rope sliding over and grinding away the fairlead is causing damage. (no one is saying it doesn't)
Internal rope damage is what really causes the rope to break. The external damage is more of a cosmetic problem (but obviously does damage the rope).
I have tested (on Cookes test rig) rope that looked like wool and yet it was still breaking at 5500kg. (10mm) When you pulled the rope apart, the inside of the rope was still very good but very rough on the outside. This is rope that new had BS of 8,700kg (10,900kg less 20% for splice)
The facts are that both common types of fairlead do damage to the rope and the solution is rollers of the correct size but that is inpractical for most people. The compromise that will maintain the strength (not visual appearance) of the rope is a hawse fairlead.
http://www.dynamica-ropes.dk/html/features.htm
This tells you that the recomended bend diameter is 5x rope diameter. So a 10mm rope needs a 50mm roller minimum. The bigger the roller then the less internal movement of the rope and the less damage.
The little rollers a lot of fairleads have WILL cause internal damage but less external damage.
Internal damage is more critical to the ultimate rope strength.
A fairlead is a compromise so make the decision based upon the facts about the rope not a visual observation that only has part of the facts involved.

[tgaguy1]

It was the rubbing, or rather "grinding" over the alloy hawse fairlead that did the damage.

Thats the why the fairlead had 5mm deep grooves in it, the overbraid was worn through and the rope had become a grey colour from ground up alloy in it (rope is orange-ish coloured under the o.braid)

That obviously had nothing to do with the radius

It was quite clearly the friction created by a dirty rope getting dragged over the alloy hawse that ground everything to pieces.

My vote is still with the roller fairlead!!!!!!!

We are talking about different things.
The rope has a recomended bend radius.
The rollers on a roller fairlead are smaller than the recomended bend radius so WILL cause internal damage and shorten the rope life. They will cause damage whether the rope is clean or dirty.
Obviously the dirty rope sliding over and grinding away the fairlead is causing damage. (no one is saying it doesn't)
Internal rope damage is what really causes the rope to break. The external damage is more of a cosmetic problem (but obviously does damage the rope).
I have tested (on Cookes test rig) rope that looked like wool and yet it was still breaking at 5500kg. (10mm) When you pulled the rope apart, the inside of the rope was still very good but very rough on the outside. This is rope that new had BS of 8,700kg (10,900kg less 20% for splice)
The facts are that both common types of fairlead do damage to the rope and the solution is rollers of the correct size but that is inpractical for most people. The compromise that will maintain the strength (not visual appearance) of the rope is a hawse fairlead.
http://www.dynamica-ropes.dk/html/features.htm
This tells you that the recomended bend diameter is 5x rope diameter. So a 10mm rope needs a 50mm roller minimum. The bigger the roller then the less internal movement of the rope and the less damage.
The little rollers a lot of fairleads have WILL cause internal damage but less external damage.
Internal damage is more critical to the ultimate rope strength.
A fairlead is a compromise so make the decision based upon the facts about the rope not a visual observation that only has part of the facts involved.

That some great tech right there Darin. Thanks for that.

[DieselBoy]

So in one sentence:

A Roller fairlead with the correct sized rollers is best.